From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D32A3B2A4; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id w18so23663714wro.7; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=5Eqxz3YTfm84zBpHTOJ/es4+bCbE0eIb/90OmVfA8U8=; b=RnH25axTX7cZL/MK/q7mLv2CVTPQ1mvhH04EMAlR3GC1w/9i8SNiougIPJUn3ALhEB U+g7IklBa8JLgfQ86GD7Ll4XEv06O2xAAirg0uEHBKVttFgedIX3lAGpQOhC+ic58cz4 D3aBzspepE6u00u55uH4tbdLLn8R1zSuEcWUYsO1x07cN9B0gRjstIdW8d1X688hz6te JGWOoZscNhkTV00xtVCaG/F9BIZ7GnK1auWYAvRk2U2s6cmDKLjhLz20CyTluFx/fiSZ XmWf9eJ/gaw68IMjIBqCNgzjbNVMQJpliaNsib4FSw6DnFfatChlYjN4X2l1gWCzzjxf 8V5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5Eqxz3YTfm84zBpHTOJ/es4+bCbE0eIb/90OmVfA8U8=; b=YZbzi1REX/pUHXm9O/41nE8r03DvJ02Sz9+sGfyWD9mqMQ39JUc7tALtOGtdp8hv5K bwWacp2qzsp2S2xl8Y160hoPfuLxtfJ7sKcmO03BFg6/1AhmFx7NyYZiAPtGFsB8eY60 P/6tydaKwndnkHjhRPXXdH8uK0qHfTLMcG2x1Xxnm8c1xMkGC+k31pJygrWeaiXUNiOx jXgL+QOnVt+wZfcoa6I7oRws2ZmoeVAOiq5J68x9MpC4uu5aeXHIriR7j+2HBFSN46kQ ks/HUkc0Bsfqtp9poIC//+CmNfsaZi9DBAhHsDUzrOShPg2BE9DpwDbupnBrnf+rN61r +rBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf38qNeCeoIsoef7eSd768DiJY3rcGzPXBdk9tBYfTvegizbJtur /EARyhexHguAXgXr6IhGDfjztAlX4Ztnfd3BczI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5GMo5U+WirvAPLwcKDG2Nhx197/DPMFKdxsvFFzlwqKvmP1/ZH2PtG1MdNBy171CipX/wnblaEGxIihBg6NWk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5109:0:b0:22f:ed4:65da with SMTP id s9-20020a5d5109000000b0022f0ed465damr12942073wrt.688.1665527062737; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:24:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72674884-9E0D-4645-B5F5-C593CC45A8F0@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:24:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rich Brown Cc: Bob McMahon , David Lang , Cake List , bloat , Rpm , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cake] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 22:24:24 -0000 Well, we've all been yammering for many years, and the message is getting through. Yes, at this point, changing the message to be more directed at engineers than users would help, and to this day, I don't know how to get to anyone in the C suite, except through the complaints of their kids. Jim got on this problem because of his kids. The guy that did dslreports, also. "my" kids are At the risk of burying the lede, our very own dave reed just did a podcast on different stuff: https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/701?autostart=3Dfalse Sometimes my own (shared with most of you) motivations tend to leak through. I really encourage the independent growth of user created and owned software, running on their own routers, and I'm very pleased to see the level of activity on the openwrt forums showing how healthy that part of our culture is. It would be a very different world if we'd decided to settle for whatever an ISP was willing to give us, and for things as they were, and I'm probably difficult to employ because of my fervent beliefs in anti-patenting, free and open source, and the right to repair... ... but I wouldn't have my world any other way. I might die broke, but I'll die free. On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 11:44 AM Rich Brown via Rpm wrote: > > > > > On Oct 11, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Bob McMahon wrote= : > > I agree that bufferbloat awareness is a good thing. The issue I have is t= he approach - ask consumers to "detect it" and replace a device with a new = one, that may or may not, meet all the needs of the users. > > > Better is that network engineers "design bloat out" from the beginning st= arting by properly sizing queues to service jitter, and for WiFi, to also e= nable aggregation techniques that minimize TXOP consumption. > > > The Yes, but... part of my answer emphasizes awareness. How are the netwo= rk engineers going to know it's worth the (minor) effort of creating proper= ly-sized queues? > > There are two fronts to attack: > > - Manufacturers - This video is a start on getting their customers to use= these responsiveness test tools and call the support lines. > > - Hardware (especially router) reviewers - It kills me that there is radi= o silence whenever I ask a reviewer if they have ever measured latency/resp= onsiveness. (BTW: Has anyone heard from Ben Moskowitz from Consumer Report= s? We had a very encouraging phone call about a year ago, and they were goi= ng to get back to us...) > > Rich > > > Bob > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:57 AM Rich Brown wrot= e: >> >> >> >> On Oct 10, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Bob McMahon via Rpm wrote: >> >> > I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point in= that >> > bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a measurement i= n >> > time units. >> >> >> Yes, but... I am going to praise this video, even as I encourage all the= techies to be sure that they have the units correct. >> >> I've been yammering about the evils of latency/excess queueing for 10 ye= ars on my blog, in forums, etc. I have not achieved anywhere near the notor= iety of this video (almost a third of a million views). >> >> I am delighted that there's an engaging, mass-market Youtube video that = makes the case that bufferbloat even exists. >> >> Rich > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitt= ed with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for= the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contai= n information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privac= y laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are = not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-m= ail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copyin= g, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-= mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please r= eturn the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy a= ny printed copy of it. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC