From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x35.google.com (mail-oa1-x35.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CC2F3B29E for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 11:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x35.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-270298a3b6eso1478123fac.3 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1723996035; x=1724600835; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sDa4/Ajg39K+ZL8Qoa5pC5lln2hW07YAXKgZKa1krB0=; b=nb9zK3EntLC7o4xZDPM6MxHW0zMo+MWG7yntpK0jRL4s1EL7bRR5vw845uitzslLr6 u5LHoOmB0Rv3sSQ014Dkmq4fjUUuuQ2JQD7PuTzQE7HgF8Kau4HC0I1I9kZPYgT7ccrK ZVKZ5W5m1U10/KaXVOy7o+ph4PqyzlnoDvF5K7Zt/94mib2gwpb5FtELRgcRyyXVDOPB gn7baXpv/IQsIY0z5ocFFzULUMOIzJ8h3MMp6LPfLjWD74zkdyDESqAufi9hltgbbynz +m8BSyPQRpgGckfNEAo42XRYR+cHzY2dMLvgx/YhbkGaLBFkTfgTqIbqZs4/t+I0jjr2 nEnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1723996035; x=1724600835; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=sDa4/Ajg39K+ZL8Qoa5pC5lln2hW07YAXKgZKa1krB0=; b=VxN3nDa+QUs7nsWxpMbNZH894lLSbMujF2pjsWGn7fZarIGzT4vSYG89TunxtYNX9A mT4+k4a0lIroXS9PMfQ89cPYjvatz+I2SYuqJLo1B7ssjulcGDf9VVestaThMc0cLrHe W0nF8VAWb4PnmA9saaLW6fd0P83TP8Pc+JjWZ6xk08WY3yOr0fiR729uTNFahe/4mbZ3 tgb5w12ntzHkfP51mP1Y7KKKhygTvjY+32pGNo0O9aX2aDEfVi9oFJh3IQ2M2g43shxa SAjuf78fiqR+qHEchViMm55Iuah8CUtr61vwB6FtlUdmjxV3ajDbQTiY1ZzuyAIx2RJB ZxAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyjvyYKQaJoy3vSY+yr44i2gGkAplNfx/cVolTVPg5nyfqMccOY OOGMK26Z8wuQm62i1UTkp4Effph4HgFncvfdqtdejycphhe+Ge7FyiUTXe9IRCTaEmBVNT0c9l0 XLF3SHLSn8Ev2CWr5+eaU16Tbw9yqZyB0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHlR1najB2cLAlm4I5s99QTT9DJ5tkV6OLy0f/Y8vdz/fvS0aPfYLVHTcoUVyfgUho/oSXbm/roxZCX770xnQ4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:3325:b0:26f:ff80:a29 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2701c522e6cmr8901018fac.31.1723996035424; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93639364-6937-4EE6-B218-2A02AF212362@gmail.com> <66c3c9fe-da65-443e-b188-c81adf13f73a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <66c3c9fe-da65-443e-b188-c81adf13f73a@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jan Ceuleers Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000492aaf061ff71bf8" Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation... X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 15:47:16 -0000 --000000000000492aaf061ff71bf8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the bloat moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi can do almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when you hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there. I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki, gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as punch at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping better wifi. Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like: http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20fo= r%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to the AP (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long. I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible bufferbloat, but it usually only shows up when you try to do s videoconference. On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat < bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote: > > In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP > links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." > > > > I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact. > > > > Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement > that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many > thanks. > > Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available whose > speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim > one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologies > are not yet deployed. > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --=20 Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11 https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287 Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --000000000000492aaf061ff71bf8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, mos= t of the bloat moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Mod= ern wifi can do almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynam= ic range of 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor int= o when you hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.=C2=A0

I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki,= gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as punc= h at openwrt's=C2=A0adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk ship= ping better wifi.


A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move= closer to the AP (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit f= or very long.

I am sad that every coffee shop I fr= equent save one, has horrible bufferbloat, but it =C2=A0usually only shows = up when you try to do s videoconference.



On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>= wrote:
On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat= wrote:
> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps = ISP links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
>
> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact. >
> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement = that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many tha= nks.

Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available whose speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim
one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologies are not yet deployed.

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Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
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