From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A59D3B2A4 for ; Thu, 6 May 2021 14:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id n10so5606984ion.8 for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 11:01:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FwJxcKs9AU5tGOcm+JYg2nE5on53sPYogn06JGoDrz4=; b=isXqPJAuZDnjru8WUvcTFl9wRTrJIv8Cl+EGyvWoCrt/YY+TOGyMm3leRe71RbZVEx AqfMOncrHX9erYE4KpKxvR2i/abSh7fzUnKuEYFkIyBvI4k1mbJb6ioEcw0it7B3QJeF wtRqcdvEFZ0tts7wQkMKsUpYp7/eWU00UzWwAaVXuV3+MOqnjZGBV0h0rBYeb8xWfTdQ A3C9tz0inlmnpwggVWfNSGYN5T9Iuj+tB0Zv3QJMvTK3grCUTD8+vmD5qQk6Z31gs872 lxtU9sH+amya/WKY8EdmwAdwZrtE2ZEsyF5RVVO+iB61FVScDMvVPOUYLbcNpCjwXp51 VUgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FwJxcKs9AU5tGOcm+JYg2nE5on53sPYogn06JGoDrz4=; b=CVWkbNkmqJWLDvLu7pTqc5oQrnE/Iq6y35NCplnQ7v43E/t43+ddc+NAhpT1TaVwHI Rjszq27AeKd6EaKXTnaxtD9RXdUupvU7tAvThFrGXcvRynuRfVMiSvHrHNfo0qA0C/t+ ZZfz2HNxTmOFTw6a8mg3Bdejbf6mM5pJv93309c/VaWct5WpBYbpWyswg6zwb1dah4mL NIEmGue8hsgKM4QCn4tpcVlpHylIlUOTXwocDXtYiUH+N27C9AY5hY9hLtnI1vXyd90y U4lEQPOhfGFQ0zqWT3KVxejSKbN+hb8gxHfRBzHgytAlb9llRKKdSId67RizOHihL9od isIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cm8dxcjdhKYFYt3LqxMXFgSgm/2Gdp7lvkP6CCqga5EVwbSzo P8RH8VMYXaK4p9/OtG9zY2sLnh872e5FNWU6+ZQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwrT4rrrP1Lk/heafyIVBhD3MND1n3uvgkkJTmupBvf2hjk/n789w+huM78XzZqM1OevaF0L2R6QUIuB3X91k= X-Received: by 2002:a02:5142:: with SMTP id s63mr5064923jaa.82.1620324059826; Thu, 06 May 2021 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 11:00:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang , "Livingood, Jason" Cc: Jason Iannone , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] Terminology for Laypeople X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 18:01:00 -0000 On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:41 AM David Lang wrote: > > it's sometimesworth reminding technical folks that if you look at a small= enough > time slice, a network is either 0% or 100% utilized, so if the output is = 100% > utilized the instant a packet arrives, the device ither dropps the data o= r > buffers it. +1. Humans tend to think in terms of Mbit/sec, when a saner interval to think about is bits/ms or less. I tend to care about bits/20 ms as being the rightest number for human perceptible latency. At a ms level, well, we are so far from that. I'd put over here http://flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net/~d/broadcom_aug9.pdf What the "bandwidth" was for a typical web transaction with 50ms latency nowadays. It's zero. The mental image I have of the latest home routers is of one of these: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/11164032/Jet= -powered-VW-Beetle-that-goes-like-a-rocket.html impacted into the side of a mountain. > > David Lang > > On Thu, 6 May 2021, Jason Iannone wrote: > > > It's not a short discussion but I start with a comparison of circuit an= d > > packet switching, usually with an accompanying drawing. There's a physi= cist > > joke in here about assuming a frictionless environment but for the inte= nt > > of this explanation, a circuit switched path is bufferless because circ= uit > > switched networks are point to point and bits are transmitted at the sa= me > > rate that they are received. Packet switching introduces a mechanism fo= r > > nodes supporting multiple ingress, single egress transmission. In order= to > > support transient bursts, network nodes hold onto bits for a time while= the > > egress interface processes the node's ingress traffic. That hold time > > equates to additional latency. Every node in a path may subject a flow'= s > > traffic to buffering, increasing latency in transit based on its indivi= dual > > load. > > > > Jason > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 8:02 PM Livingood, Jason via Bloat < > > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > >> Like many of you I have been immersed in buffer bloat discussions for = many > >> years, almost entirely within the technical community. Now that I am > >> starting to explain latency & latency under load to internal non-techn= ical > >> folks, I have noticed some people don=E2=80=99t really understand =E2= =80=9Ctraditional=E2=80=9D > >> latency vs. latency under load (LUL). > >> > >> > >> > >> As a result, I am planning to experiment in some upcoming briefings an= d > >> call traditional latency =E2=80=9Cidle latency=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 a me= asure of latency conducted on > >> an otherwise idle connection. And then try calling LUL either =E2=80= =9Cactive > >> latency=E2=80=9D or perhaps =E2=80=9Cworking latency=E2=80=9D (suggest= ed by an external colleague =E2=80=93 > >> can=E2=80=99t take credit for that one) =E2=80=93 to try to communicat= e it is latency when > >> the connection is experiencing normal usage. > >> > >> > >> > >> Have any of you here faced similar challenges explaining this to > >> non-technical audiences? Have you had any success with alternative ter= ms? > >> What do you think of these? > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for any input, > >> > >> Jason > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bloat mailing list > >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > >> > >_______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Latest Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC