From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1562D3B29E for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id b66-v6so8618770qkj.1 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8QrGlrDpu2O32WA0ii+doKI4pfefZj4QZNhdegBY04k=; b=dlIibVWkMGRI3chxduWaXsLdHeCr2X+GT5qJd+TcmW5o4M3h2H7m8qhEWWVZp9zZBl /uItl4eTJfT5wBLpg9Bzy/mRDUEu9FvT+8r+VO54+ONdjO159yHhnyFhN24VYbrzsVmh q1nL52eDBAOP1WwHfxymaOgU3/kG2MPhCtXUSD7f3H6HKs5GYbs1yRQEb7ypByJboVEm 1xRqIJ9OMp04uaXGUZTW23HzJMgxDEQnGZuqGkeNeoAgdqA+8ocdb/bbXMngjKZO1BWs rnlEckpdhU6uCRflRWDrG8q7UDiY1SutMT+AIOpNH+kY/fYfxou/07FZ1QAvG1OE9Nh1 RI6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8QrGlrDpu2O32WA0ii+doKI4pfefZj4QZNhdegBY04k=; b=XOq0ldypZ2L2I686rdDkB2HMZ+0cQIHfGSeEgjEZzZw1z9XRJn7Aql4NHSuj7TeOMQ Tj71XaJOf4ugE+jMJgCNTL/xB4Zt2uUzGAR86Pzl/z3q5FUiBQU+Kz/m5uWGmd5ffJ/z V+XGc2V+Hc/xMlNEK0wmFHYVFl25N0o3QyhA20KY1K3SMRK5O46RODmoLI7CRt92vJCg d+Utm5aJEUSzJQxIY9WeaYUx3OjaHaoOOAcDoAbt/2Yn6XXqCovtOlcynCapehe8ACmx glNan1PsJ1/xGoGSZ3IcskC6A/ZM/b5oWOgz1HeLX3OqHGSnOfbRIjymDHdw4Vn91O8k PoQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlH69yC2oFRYlmnSTD9TBjsjlGsHOM9fG+KhY+HDRDsPbooDNJX/ X/K4B0F8CkMQZXOdIZgxW6S/RqmdJW9WmqWyBjU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA+uWPwd8kVPZ81NnV24eEKiMsZSYg8WRVkMxxRfpE+UVE/r2+YBLjGFOmotUDvuQFTN2chjo9jr35ObosdCkqXdR3w= X-Received: by 2002:a37:21e6:: with SMTP id f99-v6mr9904365qki.206.1534014992614; Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:16:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152717340941.28154.812883711295847116.malone@soybean.canonical.com> <4f67f9b3-05a1-8d15-0aee-dfe8ea730d7c@gmail.com> <73c25a21-0ace-b5ee-090e-d06fb3b8dc60@kit.edu> <3F65061F-4F05-4F3F-8A43-FFCC1D27F585@gmail.com> <61E48C91-AEF9-4FF4-9F83-45EC7148EC54@jonathanfoulkes.com> <9675C88A-FCC0-43EB-9C71-CBEFD67408CB@gmx.de> <6AD85E99-BCD8-4548-AAA4-F5B08599C7AD@gmail.com> <36BE9775-A306-4DA3-B2D9-430FF07E391C@gmx.de> <3E669490-800E-40AE-B172-A99CB615822F@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:17:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: Sebastian Moeller , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Bug 1436945] Re: devel: consider fq_codel as the default qdisc for networking X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 19:16:33 -0000 In revisiting this old thread, in light of this, https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/9725 and my test results of cake with and without ecn under big loads... I feel as though I'm becoming a pariah in favor of queue length management, by dropping packets! In bufferbloat.net! cake used to drop ecn marked packets at overload, I'm seeing enormous differences in queue depth w and without ecn. (On one test at 100mbit, 10ms queues vs 30ms), more details later. Now, some of this is that cubic tcp is just way too aggressive and perhaps some mods to it have arrived in the last 5 years that make it even worse... so I'm going to go do a bit of testing with osx's implementation in particular. The ecn responses laid out in the original rfc were against reno, a sawtooth, against iw2, and I also think that cwnd is not decreasing enough nowadays in the first place.