From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21FCB3B2A4; Tue, 1 Nov 2022 23:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id a11-20020a05600c2d4b00b003cf6f5fd9f1so474122wmg.2; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 20:50:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=+dcP6+hyzPjE/RXi+6ZTLUNO/2m7fGsEU61MlMfv3rQ=; b=bdZWEPxZYGrZQxvVOHZgn8Z5QL82ft5pTRLaM9Iskm78ggpSOjbLSEBjq60m5Akup4 JFVVy4gkb1/Tw6ttXK9FDaMLTcP9cjTP5GyBntj+XTKuPo9cRY2C7P6CJobrXhrDvaq3 1AWpR7+IUYAYoSU4VK0kSYubdhMbDl7LNuK8yTtv2lrDOLRqYBq9EYqjuIFV/F5X0OdA AYDpz85Ly7PhZLHSme6r9sqfSFgUo85nCIsFIXdxAxEESf7ka/uJjvMbyyMr1VfNuxET 3rz0esqkGi/RSo8okXe0ScyST+DymJIbT1I930JdnYi84gzrVeLWiCl8Tq9rGQeDmv3I iHTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+dcP6+hyzPjE/RXi+6ZTLUNO/2m7fGsEU61MlMfv3rQ=; b=OwzGVd29jrtdgQBSTNjNMPS7CJicSI3VCynQ2CO17Il6yEF1060DdPNn/H0bTE1IzL E3sLGjRCGhgk0Vr4xMZKAUBq7pJWTX+bpjw2IWzC6fkKfBe7pVv7yYy4dBIASzbzdOZi 01Ok+5tWcin347Ui2/TgX4lWQVUQvk3JiQAQqHGjbUbka9i0jEW2pCaO9ohmdsrDwyqz sgvkcV4G/kM62fP3TXEcFQuxZhkgg4l8bJmwvGgZ9t3Ine1g6lmMzcDn1UsUULAfj5FF UfNH6xK9DzwGhXEZooFnRAF4ZRMCBZaYB5pJ+xUFJlfvO7Dla2WFA14Pyvyei5QPnH4a 90Xw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0hnjdnhlzCiuCNTPbEtXQe5t8Yjfl9Z1Qvg2q5YKC6qMMrV49a M0JNFxnipMNMW1cOWRxcV2XbTH0vVB/KcUwVqanx8F8B2RA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5Clbj7E7yP4yl0Yf7x5vJP6P+xeNVVUujtdQjPgTtug3hsY5P5qEAY5RJQBYT9JCJdSpQB5iQ1WXqlKAGNro8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3849:b0:3cf:4d99:fd1f with SMTP id s9-20020a05600c384900b003cf4d99fd1fmr23065518wmr.128.1667361046911; Tue, 01 Nov 2022 20:50:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> <4rn1o59p-36nq-87q9-3n78-828r0qppp221@ynat.uz> <17p02r7n-931q-np8o-n4r5-554psr2n8o79@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:50:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Bruce Perens Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Larry Press via Starlink , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Bloat] 25 years of open source - where we went wrong, and how to fix it X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 03:50:48 -0000 Since we are coming up on the 25th anniversary of open source, it's been weighing on my mind a lot, particularly in time of war both physical and economic. This think piece by dan geer just went by... https://www.lawfareblog.com/should-uncle-sam-worry-about-foreign-open-sourc= e-software-geographic-known-unknowns-and-open-source If somehow we could gather together all the pioneers of the transition between free software and "open source", and ask them - what's gone wrong in the last 25 years, and how to fix it, perhaps we'd see a brighter future than we do today. For me, I pin the first place where things went wrong with the failure of redhat's attempt to reward all its FOSS contributors with stock at the IPO price to become custom for other IPOs in the last 24 years. How much better would it have been for all of those contributing to have seen some ongoing reward for shoveling their best efforts into the commons? Especially the weird, wild ones, whose special skills are underappreciated, and business and personal sense of preservation lacking. I remember how good I felt then to have been a part of this sea change in software development. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB934482235810277867 And how burdened I feel now with contributing - and especially maintaining - a thing, under any license. Perhaps an idea like redhat's will make a comeback. The second place where things have gone wrong is that "open" has gone orwellian, and "open source processes", too often not followed. The world is now full of "open source", that doesn't have a tight feedback loop and regular contributors - a goodly portion of Apple's OS is "open source", but is published a year after it ships. "Open Source" orgs like prplfoundation, rdk-b, and the telecom-infrastructure project require financial hurdles to enter- and the "management stack" is pay to play, as in linux foundation and so many other vendor sponsored orgs. I'm happy to see that starlink did a GPL dump of their router, but it was unbuildable, and has garnered no contributors due to the software locks on the product. I'm sure others can think of other things that have gone awry... and hopefully, suggest ways in some forum wider than this, to fix them. "Ubiquity, like great power, requires of us great responsibility. It changes our duties, and it changes the kind of people we have to be to meet those duties. It is no longer enough for hackers to think like explorers and artists and revolutionaries; now we have to be civil engineers as well, and identify with the people who keep the sewers unclogged and the electrical grid humming and the roads mended. Creativity was never enough by itself, it always had to be backed up with craftsmanship and care =E2=80=93 but now, our standards of craftsmansh= ip and care must rise to new levels because the consequences of failure are so much more grave." - http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3D4196 On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 1:25 PM Bruce Perens wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 5:31 PM Dave Taht wrote: >> >> On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 1:45 AM Bruce Perens via Starlink >> I have rather hated the return of over-processed communications in >> the last decade, and the lack of a place to yell back at the screen. I >> liked blogs and websites and media that had comments, and better, had >> authors that read the comments. > > > I do notice that a lot of retail companies have PR mechanisms that note t= heir detractors, and they reach out and try to solve problems. I have had s= ome offer retroactive discounts after I noted issues online. > >> I like a wacking good, long form, debate... which is why I miss netnews = and email so much. > > > I don't think it's the medium so much as the demographic. Many of us here= thought for decades that we would enhance freedom and democracy through th= e internet. It didn't work out the way we expected. Our view was biased by = the fact that the early internet demographic was technical folks who valued= logic and argument to consensus. The later internet doesn't have that same= demographic. > > And you can be sure that I did not mean for Open Source to be mainly some= thing that large businesses would participate in for their own benefit. The= re are a lot of folks who re-stated the goals of Open Source after the fact= . I was just trying to reach people who would not have been sympathetic to = RMS's presentation. I care a lot more for the people than for companies tha= t could not possibly need my help. My top post was spawned by you saying this and thinking about it too long. --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC