From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CACB3B29D for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 20:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6bcd4b5ebbaso2280048a34.1 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:22:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1692577378; x=1693182178; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=wtRmGv0xoveMfCpdWgoJ2aJGem1VXJz0Jdv0gT24k7c=; b=C+ueaxe4D52/MTkCyUVWoVMR/RmmhTszNtjaRuovsTyMpUL4vghQ50oHWSRxpDsPAf c8gLSy4YPiiEoX8X9mEetAgeuiJMhXan6BRhe1c4D6pjkROEw9fgXIB50j30ntqymEyl jaWjqVR6yiLjuIbkDLgNBelpqo8QOqdq4YxNykGNeoM/hpGBP+cXUEioJMczA1yL+p9b Vac2oCbzUL0ty14Ix95Zo8FrUEIVk4FaCdpwEVgL9fVZOyLmw0femzkb+R0IVJC9w4nX WDNjelwLwK/Im44dzXk78oOU8LhqkBcp3ZOz4y6xxNCjyusPewJRixuyuiYY6TICoots NWPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1692577378; x=1693182178; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wtRmGv0xoveMfCpdWgoJ2aJGem1VXJz0Jdv0gT24k7c=; b=LmcKSquQt18WYQ/smN3RmLjj+CUWFvA2k2OgEruiwEPDwm3A6xpkXK4OMbOUPpCa8G xAIIoO2SeGrg72+18jrSd79sonznvTA0Wpo3v38OnG8dZ3ew3fUwRehN4NCJLbGykWQG iD6abR1Yui/lsyODDYE3m/eHWEQXGCudzuEg7/PCJiuwQoBM2sMCi8SRIY1WFvAbN/oe IuZQyNAJvtynlfsjF4NV6KDEKZsaHZX38Y+NHWsFvg+Uui/65R3y2DioSSmDL51/0+uy xuh9WrzOHCTps0YGu5rkVbM8Al+5yDrjWViHOe9LjihRuaMJoibM6Zbm3lhuCnrN8wWf 4Xrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yway/roaazOXO0oncMC7CqshtpDY1ZIxMv5mWKrUJ/MH2sejHAp 2fMmyIoW0a0qMt4SaaaaDpY6IG+G3lFJdy6FFUntfGNi X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFammrav8YNiZ3hUT/iXU2nwjttIQ1rrUvPLuiW8E0/HrduEgQy1BEpzLrOiGm/AmfHO1Hw5mHFDFhUczJNaSU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8a24:b0:1bb:4795:d6e4 with SMTP id p36-20020a0568708a2400b001bb4795d6e4mr8385284oaq.29.1692576994835; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:16:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <169179236696.36797.6075120394432124931@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Maximilian Bachl , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Bloat] Fwd: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp-00.txt X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 00:22:59 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Michael Welzl Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 12:30=E2=80=AFAM Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp-00.txt To: Tom Herbert Cc: tsvwg , Dear Tom, dear everyone else @ TSVWG, I=E2=80=99m (somewhat obviously, if you see what I write below) strongly in favour of this draft - and also happy to help with it. This idea (in some form) has been proposed multiple times over the years, and never took off; perhaps the time is now right? Below is some material. Earlier similar proposals: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The first appearance I know of: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-denis-udp-transport-00 (likely it isn=E2=80=99t the first to exist!) Much later: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cheshire-tcp-over-= udp-00 and finally, our own effort: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-welzl-tcp-ccc which I presented in ICCRG, at IETF-95: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/ietf95-icc= rg-tcp-in-udp.pdf Work showing benefits: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D There may be several reasons to do this. Our own interest, back then, was in implementing (single-path!) coupled congestion control in the style of RFC 8699 for TCP. Such coupling can only work when we know that the connections traverse the same bottleneck - either via measurement (RFC 8382), or because, as with this encapsulation, they carry the same outer 5-tuple. Our coupling is lightweight, as it doesn=E2=80=99t require re-vamping the entire congestion control code like the congestion manager. It still yields all the benefits of a single congestion control instance, just like a multi-streaming transport would have: lower latency and packet loss from less competition, and the ability to execute precise prioritization. This was done in the context of Safiqul Islam=E2=80=99s Ph.D. thesis. These publications describe the benefits: Safiqul Islam, Michael Welzl, Kristian Hiorth, David Hayes, Grenville Armitage, Stein Gjessing: "ctrlTCP: Reducing Latency through Coupled, Heterogeneous Multi-Flow TCP Congestion Control", IEEE INFOCOM Global Internet Symposium (GI) workshop (GI 2018), Honolulu, HI, April 2018. DOI 10.1109/INFCOMW.2018.8406887 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8406887 Preprint: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/= ctrltcp-infocom-gi-2018.pdf and, focusing on the benefit of ramping up cwnd faster when joining other connections: Safiqul Islam, Michael Welzl: "Start Me Up: Determining and Sharing TCP's Initial Congestion Window", ACM, IRTF, ISOC Applied Networking Research Workshop 2016 (ANRW 2016), Berlin, Germany, 16 July 2016. DOI https://doi.org/10.1145/2959424.2959440 https://dl.acm.org/authorize?N16076 Code: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D We have ( ...somewhere. I=E2=80=99ll be happy to dig for it if someone want= s it! ) a FreeBSD implementation of both the congestion control coupling and the encapsulation, and it=E2=80=99s described in more detail here: https://www.duo.uio.no/handle/10852/51926 Cheers, Michael On 12 Aug 2023, at 00:22, Tom Herbert wrote: Hi, This is a draft describing how TCP could be encapsulated in UDP. This would be useful if UDP really is to be the "new network layer" and we want to use UDP Options with TCP to carry network layer options. Thanks, Tom ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 3:19=E2=80=AFPM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp-00.txt To: Tom Herbert A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp Revision: 00 Title: TCP-in-UDP Encapsulation Document date: 2023-08-11 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp-00= .txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-tcp-in-udp/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-tcp-in-= udp Abstract: This document specifies a method of encapsulating TCP protocol packets within UDP headers. TCP-in-UDP is useful in situations where network capabilities specific to UDP can be leveraged for TCP packets. The IETF Secretariat --=20 Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxmoBr4cBKg Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos