From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x22a.google.com (mail-ob0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0A8D21F38A; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obcjt1 with SMTP id jt1so82727114obc.2; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:57:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9RBNXaqRtqZAUbI6uT6QuqUoipmhqR+vIELK1DPiz6g=; b=ErxnnnpxJfJuy9Ds0/xkspiGzidVwsRAVe4XRTZJ+E5EzDuhoG2zcY8TjKsihJCN9w /LygO6whaQi8qaQ8JIBgllz+0Egvl+IFvDf4+PVc4ST0sfLuFdwavkiCwhaa9JPpWGg2 cvKr16Ah4K2jmWEMUPuJXtNyPLpEXbOl/3uoG8MtrhpR2zqzbZjOPB3SiV5JfZo86Cy6 UAnAvlw31FmayImXPw4TunAVQgdjtsA24Jyr/4t7yvFhBf6BiKO61kk0fbscfBwEg7gE iXksFkCipLqw5wtzT2SZHxAyNyFVGDfY3yzp732TMl4jNApKImQqxXsOAN7ldkDT0hyH RZbw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.144.136 with SMTP id sm8mr70469975obb.63.1427000259619; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.51.66 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:57:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Michael Welzl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Jonathan Morton , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Subject: [Bloat] please kill the ECN thread from hell here and take it to aqm X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 04:58:09 -0000 On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:15 PM, Michael Welzl wrote: > I think it's about time we finally turn it [ecn] on in the real world. Please start with turning it on as fully as possible on *your* networks. Advocacy with *actual experience* I approve of, otherwise it's just religion and a rathole. I only once been so tempted to shut a thread down on these email lists. (the other time was a near-discussion of systemd) This thread started off usefully discussing the docsis 3.1 deployment and other deployment issues and if I could invoke godwins law on ecn, I would. Hell, let me try that. Only a nazi would inflict such a controversial technology on others without comprehensively trying it themselves on all their own traffic. For years. The ecn debate is a 21 year old bikeshed from hell. There is no comprehensive data from actual deployments. Start with getting some from yours! And from whoever else you can convince to try it, at scale, and not in manifestos that have so far as I can tell, a multiplicity of false premises and wishful thinking, not backed by any operational experience with the actual code available. Go ahead, convince your org(s) to deploy it, get everyone using your network to use it on every operating system available, have meet ups for every new student entering your uni to turn it on, have a black hat take the existing aqm algs apart, and then write a document describing those experiences. *Then* write the rfc. *I* deployed it. I gave my feedback already. My conclusions 3 years back were: 1) ECN is safe to deploy given the bottleneck links had fq + aqm w/ecn, and the links were high enough bandwidth to not slow other traffic. But at lower rates, it clears congestion fastest, and uses less memory, to drop packets. 2) It might be safe in limited well controlled environments (e.g. in data center, and especially in long RTT environements in space or satellites), but a wide range of testing on actual traffic mixes on things like DCTCP - and what happens when things like DCTCP accidentally escape the datacenter needs to also be carefully evaluated. 3) It is not safe to deploy on the wild and wooly internet with any of the pure aqm algorithms currently available. I have seen no data to come close to challenging these conclusions, nor tests, nor deployments, and until that happens... ...In addition to getting off the aqm mailing list, I am now sending anything I get with the evil " ecn " in it directly to /dev/null - until prague or I get way better BP meds. I got way better things to do. --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's make wifi fast, less jittery and reliable again! https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb