From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA57E3B2A4; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 13:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id bs20so9146212wrb.3; Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:33:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PZacu22bmMYqCNvVMRZ52Up+hbyTMeblzV+4+DB8qb4=; b=jSUmEkeWfaq9Mu5uiF7qqGZPTyw7rE63h6tHZtHvBCkTfChGBpZSfK6/vFG/EVVmWw j0q37kn82bQUYGY6UgEEIdC8zah7+avm2prKvHQWAA6tmPGpd2dy4P+CPn5HapXJD2qT fxcJkQX3CV0us+SsT7tw1cuVMzCe4xnVTuZt2NI2daRgYparnOoZDIwIRknacMHL1Bcb 9I+107gX38+9Vn3soAe8neSG9lQWfO9QforqRXUxmXqeElZqzhAgbvcKw0FyJYvo1Cgi K+go31JInh6FRfh52KUNaCpZsSiqusTUi8gRsvABXzTu56h3gyo+4SP8PPkDaUUV+3XC DBsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PZacu22bmMYqCNvVMRZ52Up+hbyTMeblzV+4+DB8qb4=; b=qUCBK2XFeh4l7PBwbWwQS/Obh0qDQ+TaXg7lHBgKEVuUjHPWNf7ZmUGuW018IMl807 ZSUIzdL/ndPtT7l8mq+2OLXCtYBZyu9soRJzpgQVtpU54sJvaJm3xvmybRsbdJRFKr9B jae7LBD2cNxAAroqRA1/rhw3qGxG8VnExdAtkv7KWK4hGoE9sZBt4d33C18Iqp0PV9bp xEUggrd5I+JV25TA2Yx45rYiKvesOztrNsWDPscTjfmef/z7n3NNGcrXvEBuHWeh8Rhw gtHhFpYeuXoKv3oyPGlkIGDdpoGbKbfw1RKujDhRwanWHaSq4uPY4MYA+X8nVrOP1Li4 o4bA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqdkqEwBJXnMjgs5860fqdKAMQmWlvHi2biUfyPcrCE8AcExkD8 V25apHoWxMGw6m3qpD0juoNG4mKJl8q7DfmVRXM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuMe72kxwyxXC0YCXRQKpmdyAeB6Ndxx8ioVvRjPyRncog+UV6QDkBUqx2cYTdpQhEewStCxoXNCY/EM1WaMcg= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e0c6:0:b0:242:82f5:fe65 with SMTP id m6-20020adfe0c6000000b0024282f5fe65mr2447019wri.688.1673289196541; Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:33:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1672786712.106922180@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2023 10:33:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jeremy Austin Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Rpm , "mike.reynolds@netforecast.com" , libreqos , "David P. Reed" , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] [LibreQoS] [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 18:33:17 -0000 On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:05 AM Jeremy Austin wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:26 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> I >> >> 2) Few are actually testing within-stream latency >> > > If some kind of consensus can be generated around how latency under load = should be reported, and bearing in mind that to date Preseem measures non-d= estructively, i.e., not generating synthetic flows, we would be happy to he= lp by adding that analysis to our regular reporting. Yes, it is presently too vague a term. What load? (and my kvetch, mostly - over what time period)? > We have some FWA-specific latency numbers in our reports, but will be add= ing more granular reporting for other access tech as well. A single-dimensi= on histogram isn't sufficient, IMO, but do we really need to teach everyone= to read CFS? Maybe. In writing a really ranty blog entry about my new chromebook over the holiday (feel free to subject yourself here: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/carping_on_a_chromebook/ ) I realized how different my workloads were than most, and why latency under load matters so much to me(!) - I regularly use ssh from the front of my boat to aft, suffer from running out of LTE bandwidth, use X to remotely screen share, do big backups, git pulls and pushes, live 24/7 in 15+ mosh terminal tabs to machines all over the world, play interactive network games, and do massive compiles of huge source code bases. I realized, today, after venting my spleen in that blog, that it was highly unlikely that the vast majority of people out there used their networks as I do, and it was irrational of me to project my needs on theirs. Despite identifying new applications, like cloud gaming, and edge computing, that would benefit if we smashed the LUL there, I am selfishly in this game to make my DISPLAY variable "just work" for emacs as well as it did in the 90s. But then again, I'm pretty sure, most, at least occasionally, push a big file up or down, at the very least, and get burned by bufferbloat. The subset of gamers and to some extent videoconferencers, also - but the majority? So a really interesting piece of data that I'd like to acquire from an ISP-facing network is not even the bloat, but, a histogram of the durations from syn to fin for more normal users. I imagine that 99% of all tcp transactions to/from home users to be very, very short. Uploads, longer. > > -- > Jeremy Austin > Sr. Product Manager > Preseem | Aterlo Networks > preseem.com > > Book a Call: https://app.hubspot.com/meetings/jeremy548 > Phone: 1-833-733-7336 x718 > Email: jeremy@preseem.com > > Stay Connected with Newsletters & More: https://preseem.com/stay-connecte= d/ --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC