From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-x22d.google.com (mail-ob0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D64721F231 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by obcuz6 with SMTP id uz6so2280721obc.12 for ; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=x5TcdNZAxvJgRq0uauBxiI1NU5suZhLrA8CqKbu8+00=; b=lsAuK6sSIavLJyZ5X7fR1+HRXYw0igZj0JLxu+bS2uve7vTWNAFMPwYY2furRKgm8S xZrxVlLwAVb1otm6AWc5jSsuAa4zsniiKCZ8gMqgwYcGxlt3d88GeNMBkHWrXfWDFQ9K bQRgqrkWN+zmzekAyEzG9yN7wmLyg8IG8vrw2SGy5rSf8thDVwx/VtIIkxoT3Miqt4Rm tCKQBemCD0dkUSyLiy8V6wThPaiYb4/bkXxOwNl6LtmyBshAIalEnOFU4cWc6rDjkBbL NANYt+utslbJoXHCWWkQDnE5TQh8PJsMUI38qy1YI1ZqEorJucneOotOxq4qScDUxwuu 1GIg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.47.42 with SMTP id a10mr449100oen.75.1425413953848; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.202.51.66 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <54F60F7B.4040405@rogers.com> References: <54F60F7B.4040405@rogers.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0800 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: David Collier-Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Motivating commercial entities? tell the sales manager (was: ping loss "considered harmful") X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:19:43 -0000 On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:46 AM, David Collier-Brown w= rote: > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Bill Ver Steeg (versteb) wrote: > > There are several efforts underway within this particular big vendor to > address bloat. Are these efforts crash programs to get code out the door = as > fast as humanly possible? No. There are efforts underway, though. These > things take time?? To be frank, the best way to drive feature > development/deployment/adoption in most big companies is to have customer= s > ask for them. > > > Dave Taht replied > > Creating understanding and demand has been my nearly f/t project for > several years now. I hope it is finally starting to work! > > However, along the way - in trying to work with everybody in all parts of > the industry, and to "get along" - I found myself in a deep moral and > mental hole where I realized I was no longer being true to myself or bein= g > effective in what I had really set out to do by attempting to create this > open, shared project, where I had hoped we all would be working together > for a common goal. > > > Just a rather specific pointer: it's neither the technical staff nor the > support team that has the power to report and escalate a bug. It's the sa= les > team. If you can elevator-pitch the head of sales for Honeywell* with > something that will avoid costing him sales, you'll get an informed and > motivated response from the business. I do fully understand that. However, in life, I have generally found that talking to engineers first about deeply difficult to describe technical problems and their potential solutions, is a way to get started. After that, 9 months to 2 years later, a mutated version of the same idea ends up coming from the marketing department, usually with some crazy crash engineering program suggested to get it implemented. It generally requires one vendor to have finally got it, and to be marketing their new idea or fixes, in order for the rest of the lemmings in the herd in sales and marketing at zillions of companies, to make it a priority. This is sort of what just happened with streamboost, every new top-end router I have looked at in the last few months features "Now! with traffic shaping!" prominently on the box, with each maker creating their own brand for it - kicked off first by the "streamboost gaming router!" and now, "Netgear, with Dynamic QoS", "Asus, now with Adaptive QoS!", etc. The fact that none of the now commercial, actively sold QoS/AQM/FQ system solutions I have tested so far actually work worth a damn, is of course, nowhere near as important to the company and marketing department as having a whizzy gui, and that blurb on the box, and the actual marketing to the target market(s) (gamers mostly, so far, which is sad, as small business *really needs this stuff* especially on cable) in play. We suck here at creating good, repeatable, postitive memes - with stuff like "netperf-wrapper", "sqm-scripts", "fq_codel", and even things like "AQM" or "Flow Queueing", that I have been considering engaging a marketing org to somehow find some set of useful phrases to use, with more positive connotations that "bufferbloat". Over the last 2 years, inbound web hits on the bufferbloat.net web site - despite all the SEO we have sort of done with the mailing list and elsewhere - has stayed constant at about 55,000 inbound links, according to google. And I do wish we had more stuff to correctly pitch at the sales department. But that's not my skillset, at all. I am in many ways, a lousy frontman for the bufferbloat movement, especially with being so deaf (which makes me anti-social) and partially blind (which is not helping) - and I keep wishing a - for example - Peter Diamadis or Elon Musk or Jim Zemlin would show up and help on our behalfs, helping get the right solutions "out there". I really admire in particular, peter's work in making the xprize concept (and ultimately the whole space program) take off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Diamandis I tried, at least, with "make-wifi-fast", and "cake" to get names that worked better. > If you talk to anyone else, they'll need permission from their director t= o > even report a bug, and an explicit blessing from a VP to escalate it. > > The same is true of most large companies, even if they're not very old. = If > they're market-driven, it the sales and marketing folks who report what t= he > market wants. Techies and CSRs will only be asked after the "market" > speaks. > > --dave > [* Honeywell no longer makes computers, so I can use them as a bad exampl= e > (;-)] > > -- > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht Let's make wifi fast, less jittery and reliable again! https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb