From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEE163B29E for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 23:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id d19so2501765qkg.5 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 20:54:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BgtovJonKWBDTJZxAARKOC8TViiwa5Va9crC8gcKpSI=; b=GIyJqnZCMccwB7hyT3RAsAU3h/U5dZuw+XtjP4LFvvpvYNm8AasNXQ5yBkPrhaFgks j7N2eZVShzWBjgbs4bUtWv97Y1rdWyrTQtIWxRd3/mAUwmj5ntOyMLkhJZxyg/UQQFRu ji/lgYlQbtMo4y4WOisP6RlMkOLXFozDDjwWH75dL9N9x/3Y4vUKaZIKc5/LSRR/FD41 sCQqEZBBEZVmaayiJGlaiFgUII7cmfBICyVQQC/dIYCSOWKVMsNK9V2w72tY81Yh3s5r xFkASYg9g0af+jmhySFyzkPXt+ZlbpF9tJdDHVX8fRpps1eZzJUzcw2sYCTteglVSOrh fwAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BgtovJonKWBDTJZxAARKOC8TViiwa5Va9crC8gcKpSI=; b=sbYTRmSRpJnCm8ZRlcmLxhwJ5OhwY5EqNRChPpplasbHMqqmkK6slVWuOfmRbckqe/ 5usvxsgrw+GIyaf/2RQHjr6DiPol2HQegy1gPlSkmpANZ8AMu5lhngK1StNrmDl2h9lq NcbaZ6A3hDZuNDf7K4s7C3Ke4FY2gilKUCAFZ9DBqNy13wz2YlLkF6wCSFRwQ0vhxJj0 IcT4Jy07Cmr78+utXRK6JWnlo0ODSdAOlTo1Wk5lk8aJxL13pnBC8J9t6bqrW7a6jGaP YuGM+sfpoFrQsKuCq8JTpVX2vf98EGrLfRq0aLeE5RuEnenLKPHd6SRnQr2O0Em7QLQr bpzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWY2XbZ08RDnllnM7DC6Tto+7A+p46BCxKDY6aZNAMCiDNx+TeTp MACDc4FzoliBuA5CTCkspS3uxH/ChC8cX0XTyik= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/X6GellQkFrSVzqc6ge+3aqhKSl6CTknbxGRBhEsHgY6nt3HMTWvJ87VRI0B4u0pAwyQx6SmujwGj4r6LgUcd8= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9ce:: with SMTP id 197mr3872241qkj.164.1543553662181; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 20:54:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <65EAC6C1-4688-46B6-A575-A6C7F2C066C5@heistp.net> <38535869-BF61-4FC4-A0FB-96E91CC4F076@ifi.uio.no> <87va4gwe74.fsf@taht.net> <7125B446-F2C4-45B3-B48C-8720B1E35776@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7125B446-F2C4-45B3-B48C-8720B1E35776@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 20:54:13 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] incremental deployment, transport and L4S (Re: when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world?) X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 04:54:22 -0000 On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 11:36 PM Jonathan Morton wr= ote: > > > On 29 Nov, 2018, at 9:28 am, Mikael Abrahamsson wrot= e: > > > > This is one thing about L4S, ETC(1) is the last "codepoint" in the head= er not used, that can statelessly identify something. If anyone sees a bett= er way to use it compared to "let's put it in a separate queue and CE-mark = it agressively at very low queue depths and also do not care about re-order= ing so a ARQ L2 can re-order all it wants", then they need to speak up, soo= n. > > You are essentially proposing using ECT(1) to take over an intended funct= ion of Diffserv. In my view, that is the wrong approach. Better to improv= e Diffserv to the point where it becomes useful in practice. Cake has take= n steps in that direction, by implementing some reasonable interpretation o= f some Diffserv codepoints. > > My alternative use of ECT(1) is more in keeping with the other codepoints= represented by those two bits, to allow ECN to provide more fine-grained i= nformation about congestion than it presently does. The main challenge is = communicating the relevant information back to the sender upon receipt, ide= ally without increasing overhead in the TCP/IP headers. I felt that using this bit up as a separate indicator of an alternate algorithm in play for indicating congestion was a pretty good idea... but no-one was listening at the time. > - Jonathan Morton > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740