From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmail.com policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 760F793512A for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 17:00:25 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b98983bae80so984184a12.0 for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 08:00:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1762617623; x=1763222423; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=WYVveT6E0UllDnIsdUJCigkJBgVbeSzbIoujnjDj9S0=; b=CU8GzmXuqvBP0dm15dXxN+tvZtUZDifXqzmVQkY8C98SpuW1047c06BNgMWw/F2v9y +fcU8UNVid3cY9ycNwG7gh82hsZWsk8V5Wjv+9vhBN7Wfdmv6R3JLjb3R8xtXyrwjrO6 c/kP4lrRUbnDBHN2IEy6NbnQ5NmCc0KoT5SAec8fQk6As6MLmhZeIW2Y5MDC/WkJR4mj nKIifnVQFAzyqlfdCRH3F216/3t8/3j8BSsByD9IkEZWDEyhvSMpKoMkm0k7SzgQqu2w +sfY853zRUjryGWF9mSDzJAQNVDeeLXhcYQimQjPPl20WmAF9sMu0rrCOp7KXtx7KXll 1tXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1762617623; x=1763222423; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WYVveT6E0UllDnIsdUJCigkJBgVbeSzbIoujnjDj9S0=; b=VbAxbjlELYEPf1VfrKo56Yc6Egy95fyGyC/AB41D1CYySq3hLNd3t4MJIlGO4H/hSZ wfRHnYGp+5J5lr3ZaVlHT/wflWbg6R2q9R21vQktXFAsoKRq72AIOQaQX0nppqnKa2QF xYwkxYIsRazQgwUdDMnBj4CVejNxNZCWAKvosrM+/TarJt4EKmbByr2qtelNjYKhKZGR SKmmuFZQSoYLJJL6QiLo9Lugx03Vj9rmfd6GpSdEPXpvzJgatBwXpnldbU1IxycFWwZv mCTHSD20Qvy50PXOZVQxs0VgCM8xfQt+Xhuz+MHg6+oSxPjVp2vjDIr3qbFfIx+1d5vw 3rGA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWOVZLbvozFP5xQzgcxPMyrm+BZc8aqFh9Ej8FmIg7mT/mg9UyXs4RrRWQEM0oskdLN8mD7KQ==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy1nORuy+m5dLDz8jCrR2MCHJEeUJ1poOLezPnN6JcybdEwrvjU cgjyj5Bb6TFbfU3pNfq1Ox0NcTt+/MdPeJGjpI+kARQwaVkRhThOHR8osUNjthyjc4qxuk1DrTY WoIT/7obtqtgy0y7kGRBOnRxIu071urs= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsttpP9JaC+QWr12Bwoi7PXqXi7CP6iKyWbiXt4m/bSic9j/kC9D+Ny3ZMcNEZ k+DvRr1r6aMfN1Bm4UZLW5uzziW6mR/Ea2CBm1l+6BsF1lx15dp6OTn7wV44T4wfAcNp6OOWWhO FU2ozf0y8FhwVfdmXvdKgmLml809vTxAiWwVF6JSsWOnv9OjMavLRPXm6hPMlN5BixBSjMWP6MG 7bKtRH1c2lEfq9iOJgLrv8f5Va6FKrN3GHnnciXZ3T+gnrbkWR94ErQeBOJIcWYN4ls+ji6Yc0i T7RwEOwvMYhrd7YXnuo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF3ka5Srojw0/PMZWlElJb45914jD7xiphHQyvzd5ugqpXhNorUBbWtl+MxCmkBIyRF7F4Tv+ZlcS75gXXkOKE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ebc1:b0:294:cc8d:c0c2 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-297e5663a67mr35040335ad.27.1762617622572; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 08:00:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9390D9DA-3C77-429F-A41D-E0FECD52FF06@connectivitycap.com> <2036296F-1567-4B66-BD8C-3AB49EBD5AA3@connectivitycap.com> <3934C9BE-EED5-4DF7-9451-E438E0FEFE3E@connectivitycap.com> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 09:00:10 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bkIessx4czRlxp5pnVcdFIwGcHYqcchADw8MoQfSyh4RG_53ujQji2sVP0 Message-ID: To: J Pan Cc: Jim Forster , Frantisek Borsik , Cake List , bloat , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, libreqos , l4s-discuss@ietf.org, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: GVO6OTXV6IUQ2QA6WBINKYZN74YNCFD4 X-Message-ID-Hash: GVO6OTXV6IUQ2QA6WBINKYZN74YNCFD4 X-MailFrom: dandenson@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Bloat] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: [Starlink] Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: I'm starting to see the signs that raw bandwidth is starting to lose it's dominance for marketing. It's still the clear #1 ask but price is rapidly overtaking speed for our customer requests. I believe we've hit this era's threshold on throughput needs and people have started to notice that 'more' doesn't feel like a faster service. one common scenario that we are using to win customers, in combination with facebook testimonials, is that people have bad experiences with wifi and they order a faster service from cable/fiber company and the wifi just gets worse. This scenario I think is incredibly common and seems to be a catalyst for 'speed isn't everything'. We come in with 50-500Mbps of service and solid whole-home wifi and they are converted. I hope we're not to far off from having 'speed' be just a feature, not the entire story. and yes, we QoE or service with cake via libreqos which is the difference between great service and inadequate service IMO. On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=AFPM J Pan via LibreQoS wrote: > > marketing is even worse. some claim 200mbps because 150mbps down and > 50mbps up at peak data rate. of course, this is not the only problem > in telecom, but likely the worst > > nevertheless, there are stats such as 10% inflation for food and 20% > for gas, so in total 30% ;-) at this rate, any numbers can be floating > around but none are telling the truth ;-) > -- > J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~= pan > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 10:55=E2=80=AFAM Jim Forster wrote: > > > > Exactly so. > > > > Consumer expectations and service provider marketing may be influenced = by memories of experience when transmission delay did matter. At one time = I was very happy with my home ISDN connection, and even shared it with my n= eighbor. At about 128kbs, it was three orders of magnitude slower than my = home fiber link. I=E2=80=99ve not run the numbers but I=E2=80=99m pretty s= ure transimission speed mattered for video, even for crummy quality video, = So then when I learned a bit about digital video, and cable=E2=80=99s 64 Q= AM 27mbps channels, I got excited and thought, =E2=80=9Cwow, they could del= iver 1mbps service! And wouldn=E2=80=99t it be cool to have 1M home online= at 10x the speed of ISDN?=E2=80=9D. It was cool! And two more orders of = magnitude later, here we are. > > > > =E2=80=94 Jim > > > > On Nov 7, 2025, at 12:52=E2=80=AFPM, J Pan wrote: > > > > latency is based on round-trip time, and one-way delay includes > > transmission delay, propagation delay, queuing delay and processing > > delay. bandwidth does affect transmission delay (or serialization > > delay), propagation delay is determined by the link length and the > > "travel" speed of the signal, queuing delay is the hardest part and > > affected by the buffer bloat a lot, and processing delay is another > > variable. of course, transmission delay takes less and less portion of > > the end-to-end delay now due to higher and higher "speed" links > > > > consumers may mistaken the speed of the link (the "width" of their > > pipe) as how fast their internet is (the "length" of the pipe), due to > > the poor terminology we have been using ;-) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list -- libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to libreqos-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net