Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[dan <dandenson@gmail.com>]

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 IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to fruition.
No one wants it.  I don’t want it, I see nothing but flaws, single points
of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy in homes and business,  and
general consumer mistrust of such a model and well as consolidation and
monopolization of internet access.  I will actively speak out against this,
is bad in just about every way you can talk about.  I cannot find a single
benefit it offers.




On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:

> Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over ten+
> years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required.
> Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises
> regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as they
> have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are
> also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect
> that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the sunk
> mistakes get magnified every passing year.
>
> A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the opportunity
> to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and also
> reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency *
> distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.
>
> Bob
>
> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/
>
>
> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA,
>
> but 100k+ people so not tiny.
>
>
> David Lang
>
>
>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>
>
> > There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas
>
> > partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow
>
> > started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA.
>
> > https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>
> >
>
> > Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill
>
> > which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal
>
> > after the Great Depression.
>
> >
>
> >
> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>
> >
>
> > None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban
>
> > populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These
>
> > companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get
>
> > access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.
>
> >
>
> > Bob
>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like
>
> >> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US.
>
> >> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>
> >>
>
> >> All the best,
>
> >>
>
> >> Frank
>
> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> >>
>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> >>
>
> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>
> >>
>
> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>
> >>
>
> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> >>
>
> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
> >>
>
> >> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
>
> >>> (structural separation) right.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to
>
> >>> the
>
> >>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these
>
> >>> OTA
>
> >>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and
>
> >>> factual
>
> >>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of
>
> >>>
>
> >>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
>
> >>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get
>
> >>> January
>
> >>> 6th and an insurrection.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a
>
> >>> day.
>
> >>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>
> >>> obligation
>
> >>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>
> >>> franchise
>
> >>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
>
> >>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>
> >>> miserably.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition"
>
> >>> in
>
> >>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>
> >>> monopoly
>
> >>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly
>
> >>> for
>
> >>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>
> >>> empirically
>
> >>> in the U.S.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets.
>
> >>> And
>
> >>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC
>
> >>> that
>
> >>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's
>
> >>> breast
>
> >>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
>
> >>>
>
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their
>
> >>> "news."
>
> >>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>
> >>> emotional
>
> >>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide
>
> >>> this
>
> >>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers
>
> >>> claim
>
> >>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"
>
> >>> and
>
> >>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>
> >>> trigger
>
> >>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a
>
> >>> sad
>
> >>> theme for undereducated populations.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
>
> >>>
>
> >>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction
>
> >>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>
> >>> ourselves.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Bob
>
> >>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> [1]
>
> >>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>
> >>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>
> >>> government
>
> >>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>
> >>> worl...
>
> >>>
>
> >>> cis471.blogspot.com [1]
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -------------------------
>
> >>>
>
> >>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>
> >>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>
> >>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>
> >>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>
> >>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>
> >>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>
> >>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>
> >>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>
> >>> w/Comcast chat
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Hi David,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>
> >>  communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>
> >>  (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>
> >> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
>
> >> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>
> >> perspective.
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>
> >>  communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>
> >> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
>
> >> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
>
> >> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
>
> >> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
>
> >> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
>
> >> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
>
> >> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active
>
> >> component
>
> >>
>
> >> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
>
> >> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>
> >> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
>
> >> times of decades).
>
> >>
>
> >>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>
> >>  such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in
>
> >> many
>
> >>
>
> >> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building
>
> >> such
>
> >>
>
> >> systems.
>
> >>
>
> >> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>
> >> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
>
> >> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>
> >> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
>
> >> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
>
> >> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are
>
> >> two
>
> >>
>
> >> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>
> >> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
>
> >> "reasonable" prices
>
> >> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
>
> >> access network
>
> >>
>
> >> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
>
> >> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a
>
> >> spanner
>
> >>
>
> >> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but
>
> >> will
>
> >>
>
> >> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
>
> >> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
>
> >> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
>
> >> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best,
>
> >> offer
>
> >>
>
> >> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
>
> >> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>
> >> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
>
> >> to FTTH first....
>
> >>
>
> >> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
>
> >> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up
>
> >> to
>
> >>
>
> >> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
>
> >> design in a future-proof way...
>
> >>
>
> >> Regards
>
> >> Sebastian
>
> >>
>
> >> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>
> >> that I can see why it is happening.
>
> >>
>
> >>> David Lang
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Starlink mailing list
>
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Links:
>
> >> ------
>
> >> [1]
>
> >>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Links:
>
> >> ------
>
> >> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>
> >> [2] tel:+421919416714
>
> >> [3] tel:+420775230885
>
> >
>
>

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