From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112a.google.com (mail-yw1-x112a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE0023B29E for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 14:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112a.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6b41af35b1fso13496667b3.0 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1724006612; x=1724611412; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qwZW00Zif5T6m4JKSZ6gobumlQScFyApGEnwlPkgtKg=; b=EoWELA7w2jyy3RZnxda0Oabb9qYpBcib9xOQzVGdh4mlZIBcAdcBxfPf0DWvpjkkMo s/LIEwLwrKvgs8vmWdUXH4O9HI6kvL4kkDlBkyJShq9FLPa9CDnwTdZrG0NO3h4T6gUG vKwMIu+l0JdFlxlQPRrrK4l21qVyzNf9hh+5q8kqr7z67R4DmGo8DSP/UbRgf7woUPWl 59ExoRfSpsZ7eKAg3fBrw84RQ++iDCiphgp8tkP1EvtTlfwtWeHzs2RpQcsKULiAI7NH 2NQm61teRbrY3j3C3uVgHPcsOLq1NK0Svv3bZgElXnM5SbestuVFvfafeTwpt+b+0T32 RBFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1724006612; x=1724611412; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=qwZW00Zif5T6m4JKSZ6gobumlQScFyApGEnwlPkgtKg=; b=O/2xvJAUwvCrC4IOPr0QtzAveQlWuYJdrVwCon39y4lE0MWj4PBLVTOM7KHfEhwoh6 w+3rlV4FOBKkdiaQq9aAhZi2IkrSonT1xB/jJL4+d70uI2h6Rb9fNtXG/1imRsmOCqRk FlGiS7QJArqs4DBB8Lulb2EzHQ3dAagW55Z+NXhQCtfez/tIp+qG29N6D1pTjtBb6NKb +0jbtwxGleQL3mdvDDDkz+1AbiY/lSzV2y+1x4AepsyD8VS8lx0rkAMnckjSgg1oqZun 3pZZk/oF9MhCAnJq3uTn97BdC98i5QMpQFz8XQXqLffjUaWZIPV9Hx32+heJBZ4IxdhY GZQw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWvpZ4X5IhJzjKklaoU1tMryNobhb2EAB6Jh8fC+t2awoIZgWLafhZZMCKx83UUy1WmhJ4oug==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyncanUfJjGLhOblCQl/YoiLNagMvKDjry3fH3oUCOq7deG6WeJ URk5ghMwZHnCrCf67YgcR03bLM/rRq62abjUNnqmikaIkJf/qmFf9RgnWIO5aZH/YpnixJi+L++ 12oaHsDB4jmh84YposgrA8cFI/wM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHa5sQ2LMutIUqULwTAZx8crtORab1GGiTJD9DWsnKnhjg33rZqwrDdABufXEZYSr1RT1WyHHQgzk6n2pE1Rn8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6d0c:b0:6ae:93bf:5d23 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6b45468cdcemr63161597b3.45.1724006611976; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 11:43:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93639364-6937-4EE6-B218-2A02AF212362@gmail.com> <66c3c9fe-da65-443e-b188-c81adf13f73a@gmail.com> <9r15noro-s0n7-r264-qs1r-8psqp6s52oso@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 20:43:21 +0200 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: David Lang , Jan Ceuleers , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b28ef6061ff991ee" Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation... X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 18:43:32 -0000 --000000000000b28ef6061ff991ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This high speed increased issues thing has been something we=E2=80=99ve tal= ked with customers about many times in both wisp and msp businesses. Some cheap 802.11n router can be fantastic when you have a 10M service but becomes the primary issue at 50M+. On the isp side it=E2=80=99s how we explain and justify the need for premiu= m wifi for high speed plans, even requiring our router be installed even if they want to use their own. Literally filtering dhcp for only our routers. On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 6:12=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht wro= te: > One of the things I like about sitting on top of the libreqos deployment > is being able to see the side effects of different ISP bandwidth tiers, a= nd > we can now correlate rtt, drops and tcp retransmits somewhat. At 25/10 ca= ke > manages most of the bandwidth (beautifully). At 100/20 we see very little > ISP drops but do see rtt skyrocket sometimes which is a sure sign to the > ISP to suggest a wifi upgrade of some sort to the customer. > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:01=E2=80=AFAM David Lang wrote: > >> Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traffic to = a >> single >> client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that wit= h >> n >> clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a >> single >> slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's >> bandwidth >> would indicate. >> >> David Lang >> >> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >> >> > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700 >> > From: Dave Taht via Bloat >> > Reply-To: Dave Taht >> > To: Jan Ceuleers >> > Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation... >> > >> > Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the blo= at >> > moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi >> can do >> > almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of >> > 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when >> you >> > hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there. >> > >> > I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki, >> > gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as >> punch >> > at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping >> better >> > wifi. >> > >> > Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like: >> > >> http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%2= 0for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf >> > >> > A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to >> the AP >> > (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long. >> > >> > I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible >> > bufferbloat, but it usually only shows up when you try to do s >> > videoconference. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat < >> > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> > >> >> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote: >> >>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP >> >> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." >> >>> >> >>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact. >> >>> >> >>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statemen= t >> >> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Ma= ny >> >> thanks. >> >> >> >> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available >> whose >> >> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim >> >> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi >> technologies >> >> are not yet deployed. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Bloat mailing list >> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > >> > > -- > Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11 > https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287 > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > --000000000000b28ef6061ff991ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This high speed increased issues thing has been something= we=E2=80=99ve talked with customers about many times in both wisp and msp = businesses.=C2=A0 Some cheap 802.11n router can be fantastic when you have = a 10M service but becomes the primary issue at 50M+. =C2=A0

On the isp side it=E2=80=99s how we e= xplain and justify the need for premium wifi for high speed plans, even req= uiring our router be installed even if they want to use their own.=C2=A0 Li= terally filtering dhcp for only our routers.=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 18, 2024= at 6:12=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht <da= ve.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
One of the things I like about sitting on top of the libreqos deployment i= s being able to see the side effects=C2=A0of different ISP bandwidth tiers,= and we can now correlate rtt, drops and tcp retransmits=C2=A0somewhat. At = 25/10 cake manages most of the bandwidth (beautifully). At 100/20 we see ve= ry little ISP drops but do see rtt skyrocket sometimes which is a sure sign= to the ISP to suggest a wifi upgrade of some sort to the customer.=C2=A0
On= Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:01=E2=80=AFAM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traff= ic to a single
client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that wi= th n
clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a single =
slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's b= andwidth
would indicate.

David Lang

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:

> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700
> From: Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> To: Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com>
> Cc: b= loat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...
>
> Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the blo= at
> moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi c= an do
> almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of=
> 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when = you
> hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.
>
> I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki, > gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as = punch
> at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shippi= ng better
> wifi.
>
> Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like:
> http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20ba= sed%20queue%20limit%20for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf >
> A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to t= he AP
> (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long.=
>
> I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible
> bufferbloat, but it=C2=A0 usually only shows up when you try to do s > videoconference.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat < > bloat= @lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
>>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-= 500mbps ISP
>> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as = fact.
>>>
>>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a st= atement
>> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts?= Many
>> thanks.
>>
>> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available= whose
>> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a cl= aim
>> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi techno= logies
>> are not yet deployed.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> B= loat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



--
Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
--000000000000b28ef6061ff991ee--