From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B4483B2A4; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 05:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id f140so13429392wmd.2; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:57:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nAxSNb10sqx8eWBu2cXmABRJALrWSpNcLfJan03ukng=; b=leS7PXk0r0q53jAX4NAFEHLAPnQr3AgAn+NKLs4XnDfdIBxzma+jNioCi5xj8JLAbP XPayr5WgFlNbQct4ouw0RYUOO4deiiPFBfZibozRhE3iLg93ejxLBkWzVWwjf/xC6Qp5 qFHOOT4zIwEvbU0IZufxOTWRdTdMv54jz+eDK79mDzqAIqqzMNDS7VmOkWMhbMURW7lQ 6P5UuSDBtI+n8L2UTb/p3qqAe9JQlAuXN1/ECB1L5EJWdigVCkPX/0tt6kqoepsh2MLJ KsEVP/3+4Q3lNDknQJygWZrh52w4Ieg/P/q7w+Z55W9ZzqHxhL/WmL/obQcqOgbOM07l 18+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nAxSNb10sqx8eWBu2cXmABRJALrWSpNcLfJan03ukng=; b=Nt89NnsaZHlQRqbNspIHUxrXudlPp663pofzoDsV3xFPXKLULin/wq2qI0Skzgm6o1 Qia5K6d5Y8uKZJJfyWhh0qGOHZ1K1fS4sJtSqxri50wG/ZoS7PIkkVoNnSRs7ZPuhz/O rayiNPihqCiqqF1QOcDrOrP0wBlEHD08iM8OAfyqVARvSwUtYagOtMyEgnRpQgmQ/0cz S9q0tokmNdxMecF0cirzNBFdo6D73Gv5KRHI/44t5fL2WGGK5N05OLixM7HLIHAjD7jq 7Peb8I51OunXpwY2lzGOqIijB/VuRSbIsEl89izCnnBHa2iovpdUSsl82H6YkafFDLND Oomw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4k0sZZLUXCCA2ejIizCs3lbPawzMGTrWBueeQm5LUEnj7zVRh3 8NywEFaGkmCxWl8Cs4bsFoz75d7ITkrjz1L1/DeIeA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMaVZRVk7oRX5CHeOZYs3MFrTDDB2N6LmzQotxgx2qE6Z08V9FFNLCCvPeGGUO/vKYIVqwulxpvgVrZkBAKhkJI= X-Received: by 10.80.141.141 with SMTP id r13mr29980713edh.122.1512385054941; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:57:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.144.38 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 02:57:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92906bd8-7bad-945d-83c8-a2f9598aac2c@lackof.org> <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net> From: Pedro Tumusok Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:57:34 +0100 Message-ID: To: bloat Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f40304396124f6a948055f8195eb" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] DC behaviors today X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:57:36 -0000 --f40304396124f6a948055f8195eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking at chipsets coming/just arrived from the chipset vendors, I think we will see CPE with 10G SFP+ and 802.11ax Q3/Q4 this year. Price is of course a bit steeper than the 15USD USB DSL modem :P, but probably fits nicely for the SMB segment. Pedro On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote: > Bingo; that's definitely step one - gateways capable of 10gbit > becoming the norm. > > On 4 December 2017 at 23:43, Pedro Tumusok > wrote: > > For in home or even SMB, I doubt that 10G to the user PC is the main us= e > > case. > > Its having the uplink capable of support of more than1G, that 1G does n= ot > > necessarily need to be generated by only one host on the LAN. > > > > > > > > Pedro > > > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling > > wrote: > >> > >> How to deliver a switch, when the wiring and port standard isn't > >> actually workable? > >> > >> 10GBase-T is out of Voltage Spec with SFP+ ; you can get copper SFP+ > >> but they are out of spec... 10GbaseT doesn't really work over Cat5e > >> more than a couple of meters (if you are lucky) and even Cat6 is only > >> rated at 30M... there is a reason no-one is producing Home Copper > >> switches and it's not just the NIC Silicon cost (that was a factor > >> until Recently obviously, but only part of the equation). > >> > >> On the flip side: > >> Right now I am typing this via a 40gbit network, comprised of the > >> cheap and readily available Tb3 port - it's daisy chained and limited > >> to 6 ports, but right now it's easily the cheapest and most effective > >> port. Pitty that the fabled optical tb3 cables are damn expensive... > >> so you're limited to daisy-chains of 2m. They seem to have screwed the > >> pooch on the USB-C network standard quite badly - which looked so > >> promising, so for the moment Tb3 it is for me at least. > >> > >> On 4 December 2017 at 23:18, Mikael Abrahamsson > wrote: > >> > On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote: > >> > > >> >> I'm not going to pretend that 1Gig isn't enough for most people. Bu= t > I > >> >> refuse to believe it's the networks equivalent of a 10A power (20A > >> >> depending on where you live in the world) AC residential phase > >> >> distribution circuit. > >> > > >> > > >> > That's a good analogy. I actually believe it is, at least for the ne= ar > >> > 5-10 > >> > years. > >> > > >> >> This isn't a question about what people need, it's more about what > the > >> >> market can deliver. 10GPON (GPON-X) and others now make it a viable > >> >> service that can and is being deployed in residential and commercia= l > >> >> access networks. > >> > > >> > > >> > Well, you're sharing that bw with everybody else on that splitter. > >> > Sounds to > >> > me that the service being delivered over that would instead be in th= e > >> > 2-3 > >> > gigabit/s range for the individual subscriber (this is what I > typically > >> > see > >> > on equivalent shared mediums, that the top speed individual > >> > subscriptions > >> > are will be in the 20-40% of max theoretical speed the entire soluti= on > >> > can > >> > deliver). > >> > > >> >> The problem is now that Retail Servicer Provider X can deliver a po= st > >> >> Gigabit service... what is capable of taking it off the ONU/CMNT > point > >> >> in > >> >> the home? As usual it's a follow the money question, once RSP's can > >> >> deliver > >> >> Gbit+ they will need an ecosystem in the home to feed into it, and > >> >> right now > >> >> there isn't a good technology platform that supports it; > >> >> 10GBase-X/10GBaseT > >> >> is a non-starter due to the variability in home wiring - arguably > the 7 > >> >> year > >> >> leap from 100-1000mbit was easy It's mean a gap of 12 years and > >> >> counting for > >> >> the same.. it's not just the NIC's and CPU's in the gateways it's t= he > >> >> connector and in-home wiring problems as well. > >> > > >> > > >> > As soon as one goes above 1GE, prices increases A LOT on everything > >> > involved. I doubt we'll see any 2.5G or higher speed equipment in wi= de > >> > use > >> > in home/SME in the next 5 years. > >> > > >> >> Blatant Plug - request : > >> >> I'm interested to hear opinions on this as I have a talk on this ve= ry > >> >> topic 'The long and Winding Road to 10Gbit+ in the home' > >> >> https://linux.conf.au/ at Linuxconf in January. In particular if yo= u > >> >> have any home network gore/horror stories and photos you would be > >> >> happy for me to include in my talk, please include. > >> > > >> > > >> > I am still waiting for a decently priced 10GE switch. I can get 1GE > >> > 24port > >> > managed ones, fanless, for 100-200USD. As soon as I go 10GE, price > jumps > >> > up > >> > a lot, and I get fans. The NICs aren't widely available, even though > >> > they're > >> > not the biggest problem. My in-house cabling can do 10GE, but I gues= s > >> > I'm an > >> > outlier. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bloat mailing list > >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Best regards / Mvh > > Jan Pedro Tumusok > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > --=20 Best regards / Mvh Jan Pedro Tumusok --f40304396124f6a948055f8195eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looking at chipsets coming/just arrived from the chipset v= endors, I think we will see CPE with 10G SFP+ and 802.11ax Q3/Q4 this year.=
Price is of course a bit steeper than the 15USD USB DSL modem :P, but = probably fits nicely for the SMB segment.

Pedro

On Mon, = Dec 4, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling <joel@aenertia.net&g= t; wrote:
Bingo; that's defini= tely step one - gateways capable of 10gbit
becoming the norm.

On 4 December 2017 at 23:43, Pedro Tumusok <pedro.tumusok@gmail.com> wrote:
> For in home or even SMB, I doubt that 10G to the user PC is the main u= se
> case.
> Its having the uplink capable of support of more than1G, that 1G does = not
> necessarily need to be generated by only one host on the LAN.
>
>
>
> Pedro
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling <joel@aenertia.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> How to deliver a switch, when the wiring and port standard isn'= ;t
>> actually workable?
>>
>> 10GBase-T is out of Voltage Spec with SFP+ ; you can get copper SF= P+
>> but they are out of spec... 10GbaseT doesn't really work over = Cat5e
>> more than a couple of meters (if you are lucky) and even Cat6 is o= nly
>> rated at 30M... there is a reason no-one is producing Home Copper<= br> >> switches and it's not just the NIC Silicon cost (that was a fa= ctor
>> until Recently obviously, but only part of the equation).
>>
>> On the flip side:
>> Right now I am typing this via a 40gbit network, comprised of the<= br> >> cheap and readily available Tb3 port - it's daisy chained and = limited
>> to 6 ports, but right now it's easily the cheapest and most ef= fective
>> port. Pitty that the fabled optical tb3 cables are damn expensive.= ..
>> so you're limited to daisy-chains of 2m. They seem to have scr= ewed the
>> pooch on the USB-C network standard quite badly - which looked so<= br> >> promising, so for the moment Tb3 it is for me at least.
>>
>> On 4 December 2017 at 23:18, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not going to pretend that 1Gig isn't enough f= or most people. But I
>> >> refuse to believe it's the networks equivalent of a 1= 0A power (20A
>> >> depending on where you live in the world) AC residential = phase
>> >> distribution circuit.
>> >
>> >
>> > That's a good analogy. I actually believe it is, at least= for the near
>> > 5-10
>> > years.
>> >
>> >> This isn't a question about what people need, it'= s more about what the
>> >> market can deliver. 10GPON (GPON-X) and others now make i= t a viable
>> >> service that can and is being deployed in residential and= commercial
>> >> access networks.
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, you're sharing that bw with everybody else on that = splitter.
>> > Sounds to
>> > me that the service being delivered over that would instead b= e in the
>> > 2-3
>> > gigabit/s range for the individual subscriber (this is what I= typically
>> > see
>> > on equivalent shared mediums, that the top speed individual >> > subscriptions
>> > are will be in the 20-40% of max theoretical speed the entire= solution
>> > can
>> > deliver).
>> >
>> >> The problem is now that Retail Servicer Provider X can de= liver a post
>> >> Gigabit service... what is capable of taking it off the O= NU/CMNT point
>> >> in
>> >> the home? As usual it's a follow the money question, = once RSP's can
>> >> deliver
>> >> Gbit+ they will need an ecosystem in the home to feed int= o it, and
>> >> right now
>> >> there isn't a good technology platform that supports = it;
>> >> 10GBase-X/10GBaseT
>> >> is a non-starter due to the variability in home wiring - = arguably the 7
>> >> year
>> >> leap from 100-1000mbit was easy It's mean a gap of 12= years and
>> >> counting for
>> >> the same.. it's not just the NIC's and CPU's = in the gateways it's the
>> >> connector and in-home wiring problems as well.
>> >
>> >
>> > As soon as one goes above 1GE, prices increases A LOT on ever= ything
>> > involved. I doubt we'll see any 2.5G or higher speed equi= pment in wide
>> > use
>> > in home/SME in the next 5 years.
>> >
>> >> Blatant Plug - request :
>> >> I'm interested to hear opinions on this as I have a t= alk on this very
>> >> topic 'The long and Winding Road to 10Gbit+ in the ho= me'
>> >> https://linux.conf.au/ at Linuxconf in January. In parti= cular if you
>> >> have any home network gore/horror stories and photos you = would be
>> >> happy for me to include in my talk, please include.
>> >
>> >
>> > I am still waiting for a decently priced 10GE switch. I can g= et 1GE
>> > 24port
>> > managed ones, fanless, for 100-200USD. As soon as I go 10GE, = price jumps
>> > up
>> > a lot, and I get fans. The NICs aren't widely available, = even though
>> > they're
>> > not the biggest problem. My in-house cabling can do 10GE, but= I guess
>> > I'm an
>> > outlier.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferb= loat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/blo= at
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards / Mvh
> Jan Pedro Tumusok
>
>
> __________________= _____________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@l= ists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/cerowrt-devel
>



--
=
Best rega= rds / Mvh
Jan Pedro Tumusok

--f40304396124f6a948055f8195eb--