From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F49E3B2A4 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id w28so5087920qtc.7 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 16:54:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=4VYLA/FqVJPy04GCUl9o9maekhQk+l9ZDXoNhN44wak=; b=e3bqoLEjtAOiTjmaaHPgmhfqH+AH7v6pXap3xsYBXRGTM0lEgqDfaReyBp2NH27YYS SNegoi0U0G7dR0CJgAZ/Fwrh/gf7HxLP2fX8SZh0kcRNvFZ+Tiw8AYkKNJ9YB0vJ+bza w1qEndN/MWcZGX4aSr2aQkYETbYzhNNOrrc6k6IREosk32EZ64/sYAQ2eGjLV9jINjUa qhVAXulfm5k2V3sFT90dyezdfmENYKGs1yLfWVNzXYlqwdTR8UAdtKzCqkboZL37aLD4 p1Hc+Wkwp6U7gR+QQGTnSoLXhyYdp7nbW0LsjVrZTaVtKGi06b/RnX98OlYmeUNgZwuW +Www== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=4VYLA/FqVJPy04GCUl9o9maekhQk+l9ZDXoNhN44wak=; b=ho+W1yVI9AuhOlQk1083jGhnskcjQ4qXwXtb8I1+btImELYsYjnZMBrwAuF4htgtoO FrYKN8rfmS/q/4BWp2cIa57N3rXXd/N+7sfz2xWtVbaN3wer1RHcNGkMGh2uq72eFMY+ wVIuLcYQ0i4+OfoVUTCtlAdmXsw3KJcueZ8wYPQQ0gMIATR8m3IOQwYcTqpZ+ViwBnDr oM+2LYGJiAcTrm24YyuL9ST8vuJjjrTTIAZc5lhboxw2Snin9YK81bsO3vaV2svtCZcK 4np77eHblPgwDZIYzy0ANAlUUUVMbJ3RE7dm1LUj35qH8xgUJ6JQpn1KF1sF8gvDjVDw MwMg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo3KZqKzs6n+eN9/fNjbW0DzfoDM3Mrzw1BeprkqKs6tiMESpf0N h9bA2Ld06ID+Kp60hShXfpY2ylvwjr5nlDMYGiYhfA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR5J/rji1FonZDOEGeVFso+ggeG7XCKEeVPppvcvq5nDLFBO9jPuaNd5V7TQcaxhiRlOJ9UlMx5MuWdTVI1agoA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:40c:b0:344:5aba:a153 with SMTP id n12-20020a05622a040c00b003445abaa153mr8356181qtx.261.1661730845748; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Neal Cardwell Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:53:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: Bob McMahon Cc: Dave Taht , bloat , BBR Development , ayush@comp.nus.edu.sg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6666105e755dc04" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [bbr-dev] Re: Are we heading towards a BBR-dominant Internet? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 23:54:06 -0000 --000000000000c6666105e755dc04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are talking about the screenshot of the UI at https://github.com/google/transperf, yes, that particular test is a simple bulk flow test to show a simple case to give a sense of what the UI looks like. :-) We use a few different approaches that can examine dynamic flows causing packet loss: (1) The test configuration language is Python, so you can construct arbitrarily fancy dynamic flow scenarios with arbitrary numbers of flows starting and stopping at arbitrary times. (2) The tests can also use netperf command line options to run periodic short transfers. (And we welcome patches to integrate support for other tools.) (3) We also run a fair number of tests for robustness to loss just using randomly injected packet loss (using netem). These are just some of the approaches we have used, and I don't claim that these are the only or best approaches to look at this. :-) cheers, neal On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 6:39 PM Bob McMahon wrote: > Hi Neal, > > These look like steady-state bulk flow tests unless I'm missing something= . > > Bob > > On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 11:43 AM Neal Cardwell > wrote: > >> Sure. For testing these kinds of properties of the BBR algorithm we use >> various transperf test cases. The transperf tool is something Soheil Has= sas >> Yeganeh and our team cooked up and open-sourced here: >> >> https://github.com/google/transperf >> >> Best regards, >> neal >> >> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 4:43 PM Bob McMahon >> wrote: >> >>> Curious to what you're doing during development, if you can share? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bob >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Cardwell >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bob, >>>> >>>> Good question. I can imagine a number of different techniques to >>>> generate and measure the traffic flows for this kind of study, and don= 't >>>> have any particular suggestions. >>>> >>>> neal >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM Bob McMahon >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Neal, >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts on tooling to generate and measure the traffic flows BBR >>>>> is designed to optimize? I've been adding some low duty cycle support= in iperf >>>>> 2 with things like --bounc= eback >>>>> and --burst-period and --burst-period >>>>> . We could pull the >>>>> size and period from a known distribution or distributions though not= sure >>>>> what to pick. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development < >>>>> bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this >>>>>> paper is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows. >>>>>> >>>>>> Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to >>>>>> dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations become >>>>>> different. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if ne= w flows >>>>>> enter and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typic= al 30ms >>>>>> broadband path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows e= nter >>>>>> and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUB= IC will >>>>>> not be able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, wi= th >>>>>> 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec, if new flows enter and cau= se loss >>>>>> more frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be= able >>>>>> to utilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve itsel= f in >>>>>> some very typical kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real= world. >>>>>> >>>>>> BBR is not trying to maintain a higher throughput than CUBIC in thes= e >>>>>> kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BBR is trying to be= robust >>>>>> to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in the real world whe= n there >>>>>> are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottleneck. >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers, >>>>>> neal >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < >>>>>> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would happe= n >>>>>>> if we plugged some different assumptions into their model. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> FQ World Domination pending: >>>>>>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >>>>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Bloat mailing list >>>>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "BBR Development" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to bbr-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bbr-dev/CADVnQykKbnxpNcpuZATug_4VL= hV1%3DaoTTQE2263o8HF9ye_TQg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This electronic communication and the information and any files >>>>> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are inte= nded >>>>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addresse= d and >>>>> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, pro= tected >>>>> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone el= se. If >>>>> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deli= vering >>>>> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that an= y use, >>>>> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copyin= g of >>>>> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in er= ror, >>>>> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer,= and >>>>> destroy any printed copy of it. >>>> >>>> >>> This electronic communication and the information and any files >>> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intend= ed >>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed = and >>> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, prote= cted >>> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else= . If >>> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delive= ring >>> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any = use, >>> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying = of >>> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in erro= r, >>> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, a= nd >>> destroy any printed copy of it. >> >> > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed an= d > may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protect= ed > by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. = If > you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliveri= ng > the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any us= e, > copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of > this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, > please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and > destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000c6666105e755dc04 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you are talking about the screenshot of the UI at=C2=A0= =C2=A0https://github.com/google/transperf,=C2=A0yes, that par= ticular test is a simple bulk flow test to show a simple case to give a sen= se of what the UI looks like. :-)

We use a few different= approaches that can examine dynamic flows causing packet loss:=C2=A0

(1) The test configuration language is Python, so you can= construct arbitrarily fancy dynamic flow scenarios with arbitrary numbers = of flows starting and stopping at arbitrary times.

(2) The tests can also use netperf command line options to run periodic sh= ort transfers. (And we welcome patches to integrate support for other tools= .)

(3) We also run a fair number of tests for robu= stness to loss just using randomly injected packet loss (using netem).

These are just some of the approaches we have used, an= d I don't claim that these are the only or best approaches to look at t= his. :-)

cheers,
neal


On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 6:39 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi Neal,<= div>
These look like steady-state bulk flow tests unless I= 9;m missing something.

Bob

On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 11:43 AM Nea= l Cardwell <nc= ardwell@google.com> wrote:
Sure. For testing the= se kinds of properties of the BBR algorithm we use various transperf test c= ases. The transperf tool is something Soheil Hassas Yeganeh and our team co= oked up and open-sourced here:

Best regards= ,
neal

On Sat,= Aug 27, 2022, 4:43 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com&g= t; wrote:
Curious to what you're doing during development, if you can = share?

Thanks,
Bob

On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Cardwell= <ncardwell@google.com> wrote:
Hi Bob,

Good question. I can imagine a number of different techniques to gen= erate and measure the traffic flows for this kind of study, and don't h= ave any particular suggestions.

neal

On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM Bob McMahon <bob= .mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:
Hi Neal,

Any thoughts on tooli= ng to generate and measure the traffic flows BBR is designed to optimize? I= 've been adding some low duty cycle support in iperf 2 with things like --bounceba= ck and --burst-period and --burst-period. We could pull the size and pe= riod from a known distribution or distributions though not sure what to pic= k.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob

On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Nea= l Cardwell' via BBR Development <bbr-dev@googlegrou= ps.com> wrote:
Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key a= spect of this paper is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk= flows.

Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, = RPCs, etc) to dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations = become different. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if ne= w flows enter and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typi= cal 30ms broadband path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows= enter and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUB= IC will not be able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, w= ith 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec,=C2=A0 if new flows enter and c= ause loss more frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not= be able to utilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve its= elf in some very=C2=A0typical=C2=A0kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen i= n the real world.

BBR is not trying to maintain a = higher throughput than CUBIC in these kinds of scenarios with steady-state = bulk flows. BBR is trying to be robust to the kinds of random packet loss t= hat happen in the real world when there are flows dynamically entering/leav= ing a bottleneck.

cheers,
neal




On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Da= ve Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net&g= t; wrote:
I rath= er enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would happen
if we plugged some different assumptions into their model.

https://www.c= omp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf

--
FQ World Domination pending: h= ttps://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/list= info/bloat

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This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.
This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000c6666105e755dc04--