From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD4023B2A4 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 14:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id f4so4713146qkl.7 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 11:43:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=XP/bgdrg9A0GcprafrCXqW2FTeMpuhYi3XM5VOMrOtA=; b=aDgfYQW7F9Nt/WtvXLOYBydijhy8B4SB+Cv6vxFmzklHSYM/99/t2SlfmR0k0qu3Eq ACXUkxeQtUd4MSLPzb9KuyScORxaCd2p38VHIdEL1Gyci6I+nrhv+v4o8YoMNNz2K36a isieVKIu2BpdWNg1L2LHmOPVMJTRJQ/IesX7OEcng/23NdcW7NlLJWKGEpWDbEpL24i1 YkqSBvVV5BheZmeKWKCItaCErlnFU+Jb77dG8+TlLC/B6424XjfVaE309oALgwqGx2cp KuUSoyLyaUb67T30z0wKD5Xssb6Jly2NrHwqtowNW3tG8KhGfYhY2BSEg/7x/mSHE0D6 QJrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=XP/bgdrg9A0GcprafrCXqW2FTeMpuhYi3XM5VOMrOtA=; b=wXZCaw0AVXzLGUcgqEz+3GCL5zUJPB7+wdqktuyhlJQNMKD8Ptqq2nC2eD9HAn/vDK eyv9mLBiLixxAOs6FeRTU+BBgrNdOhZk07Kakr5WeEOnoStBvyFrSwSfpHflPTgGDiDS VL0XjLaBDLlAsW6MQ3oggK/44xHG35EphUrqb7fwTfEkPZ2Xz4yvj1cZa3Fjd+PKLQLr gJnwM9xbwqLDa7RwVfus037CsEM/JY6Z0h/v5tz3y40bHAoWv4mWxZUUVRdz+LLsUO2z NjwVc5qSxPlfaxXMlYfhq7WGAN3qkZ4InoKTtYJCRJ6QLRfVQLxlp+q27Zbc5Cr5De2d yo9w== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo2YJka+AF1H+UmfsWoyjrQK+oXFnHqnTyPSjZSvdi3iPBT6rPCS JNsYHbPJDnxQDfUoM3ChWlmw/Mt50GmMieKgnn22eUSsNqU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7sX4prTYgD12Z6KH/Od/upmyQ9eEGIx7lfpOneEw7vGqYYOSHKxJOREGUyFBXvhb7wBpr66mV8kqFxvGUDJnk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1a03:b0:6bb:8e3e:8a1a with SMTP id bk3-20020a05620a1a0300b006bb8e3e8a1amr6061408qkb.296.1661712203053; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 11:43:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Neal Cardwell Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 14:43:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: Bob McMahon Cc: Dave Taht , bloat , BBR Development , ayush@comp.nus.edu.sg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095b1e805e75185f4" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [bbr-dev] Re: Are we heading towards a BBR-dominant Internet? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 18:43:23 -0000 --00000000000095b1e805e75185f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure. For testing these kinds of properties of the BBR algorithm we use various transperf test cases. The transperf tool is something Soheil Hassas Yeganeh and our team cooked up and open-sourced here: https://github.com/google/transperf Best regards, neal On Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 4:43 PM Bob McMahon wrote: > Curious to what you're doing during development, if you can share? > > Thanks, > Bob > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Cardwell > wrote: > >> Hi Bob, >> >> Good question. I can imagine a number of different techniques to generat= e >> and measure the traffic flows for this kind of study, and don't have any >> particular suggestions. >> >> neal >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM Bob McMahon >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Neal, >>> >>> Any thoughts on tooling to generate and measure the traffic flows BBR i= s >>> designed to optimize? I've been adding some low duty cycle support in i= perf >>> 2 with things like --bounceb= ack >>> and --burst-period and --burst-period >>> . We could pull the >>> size and period from a known distribution or distributions though not s= ure >>> what to pick. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bob >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development < >>> bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this pape= r >>>> is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows. >>>> >>>> Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to >>>> dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations become >>>> different. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if new = flows >>>> enter and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typical= 30ms >>>> broadband path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows ent= er >>>> and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUBIC= will >>>> not be able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, with >>>> 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec, if new flows enter and cause= loss >>>> more frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be a= ble >>>> to utilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve itself = in >>>> some very typical kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real w= orld. >>>> >>>> BBR is not trying to maintain a higher throughput than CUBIC in these >>>> kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BBR is trying to be r= obust >>>> to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in the real world when = there >>>> are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottleneck. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> neal >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < >>>> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would happen >>>>> if we plugged some different assumptions into their model. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> FQ World Domination pending: >>>>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Bloat mailing list >>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "BBR Development" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to bbr-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bbr-dev/CADVnQykKbnxpNcpuZATug_4VLhV= 1%3DaoTTQE2263o8HF9ye_TQg%40mail.gmail.com >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> This electronic communication and the information and any files >>> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intend= ed >>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed = and >>> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, prote= cted >>> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else= . If >>> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delive= ring >>> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any = use, >>> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying = of >>> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in erro= r, >>> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, a= nd >>> destroy any printed copy of it. >> >> > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed an= d > may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protect= ed > by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. = If > you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliveri= ng > the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any us= e, > copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of > this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, > please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and > destroy any printed copy of it. --00000000000095b1e805e75185f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure. For testing these kinds of proper= ties of the BBR algorithm we use various transperf test cases. The transper= f tool is something Soheil Hassas Yeganeh and our team cooked up and open-s= ourced here:

=C2=A0=C2=A0https://github.com/google/transperf

Best regards,
neal

On Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 4:= 43 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:
Curious to what you'r= e doing during development, if you can share?

Thanks,
Bob
On Sat, = Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com= > wrote:
=
Hi Bob,

Good question. I can imagine a = number of different techniques to generate and measure the traffic flows fo= r this kind of study, and don't have any particular suggestions.
<= div>
neal


On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM= Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:
= Hi Neal,

Any thoughts on tooling to generate and measure the traffic= flows BBR is designed to optimize? I've been adding some low duty cycl= e support in iperf 2 with things like --bounceback and --burst-period and --burst-peri= od. We could pull the size and period from a known distribution or dist= ributions though not sure what to pick.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob
On = Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development &l= t;bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Yes, I agree th= e assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this paper is that it focuses= on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows.

Once you al= low for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to dynamically enter and le= ave a bottleneck, the considerations become different. As is well-known, Re= no/CUBIC will starve themselves if new flows enter and cause loss too frequ= ently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typical 30ms broadband path with a flow fa= ir share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows enter and cause loss more frequently = than roughly every 2 seconds then CUBIC will not be able to utilize its fai= r share. For a high-speed WAN path, with 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbi= t/sec,=C2=A0 if new flows enter and cause loss more frequently than roughly= every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be able to utilize its fair share. Ba= sically, loss-based CC can starve itself in some very=C2=A0typical=C2=A0kin= ds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real world.

=
BBR is not trying to maintain a higher throughput than CUBIC in these = kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BBR is trying to be robust= to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in the real world when ther= e are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottleneck.

=
cheers,
neal




On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I rather enjoyed this one. I can't hel= p but wonder what would happen
if we plugged some different assumptions into their model.

https://www.c= omp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf

--
FQ World Domination pending: h= ttps://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/list= info/bloat

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This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.
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