Re: [Bloat] [bbr-dev] Re: Are we heading towards a BBR-dominant Internet?

[Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com>]

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Thanks for the pointers,  Bob.

best regards,
neal


On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 12:47 PM 'Bob McMahon' via BBR Development <
bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Thanks Neal. You might want to check out the flows released as iperf 2.
> <https://sourceforge.net/p/iperf2/code/ci/master/tree/flows/> Basically
> instantiate flows and run them. There typically is a controller running
> python3 (v 3.10 or better) that uses ssh pipes to DUTs. The design is event
> driven <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_programming> and
> utilizes python's asyncio <https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio.html>
> which is quite powerful. The DUTs just need iperf2 and ssh.
>
> The code is at an alpha level and we're looking for broader industry
> support and contributions. Both in realtime plotting but also in things
> like multivariate regression detection using statistical process controls
> (SPC) e.g. Hoteling
> <https://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/pmc/section3/pmc341.htm>. There
> is some crude clustering code around latency too which uses
> Kolmogorov-Smirnov
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov%E2%80%93Smirnov_test>distance
> matrices per the histograms.
>
> A suggestion is that those in developer and control test roles synchronize
> their device clocks with PTP. Iperf 2 supports one way delay (OWD)
> calculations but these only work if the clocks are sync'd.  These in turn
> can be used per Little's law
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little%27s_law> to calculate effective
> average queue depth, though this typically assumes a steady state
> measurement.
>
> Bob
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 4:54 PM Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If you are talking about the screenshot of the UI at
>> https://github.com/google/transperf, yes, that particular test is a
>> simple bulk flow test to show a simple case to give a sense of what the UI
>> looks like. :-)
>>
>> We use a few different approaches that can examine dynamic flows causing
>> packet loss:
>>
>> (1) The test configuration language is Python, so you can construct
>> arbitrarily fancy dynamic flow scenarios with arbitrary numbers of flows
>> starting and stopping at arbitrary times.
>>
>> (2) The tests can also use netperf command line options to run periodic
>> short transfers. (And we welcome patches to integrate support for other
>> tools.)
>>
>> (3) We also run a fair number of tests for robustness to loss just using
>> randomly injected packet loss (using netem).
>>
>> These are just some of the approaches we have used, and I don't claim
>> that these are the only or best approaches to look at this. :-)
>>
>> cheers,
>> neal
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 6:39 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Neal,
>>>
>>> These look like steady-state bulk flow tests unless I'm missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 11:43 AM Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sure. For testing these kinds of properties of the BBR algorithm we use
>>>> various transperf test cases. The transperf tool is something Soheil Hassas
>>>> Yeganeh and our team cooked up and open-sourced here:
>>>>
>>>>   https://github.com/google/transperf
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> neal
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 4:43 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Curious to what you're doing during development, if you can share?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good question. I can imagine a number of different techniques to
>>>>>> generate and measure the traffic flows for this kind of study, and don't
>>>>>> have any particular suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> neal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Neal,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any thoughts on tooling to generate and measure the traffic flows
>>>>>>> BBR is designed to optimize? I've been adding some low duty cycle support
>>>>>>> in iperf 2 <https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/> with things
>>>>>>> like --bounceback and --burst-period and --burst-period
>>>>>>> <https://iperf2.sourceforge.io/iperf-manpage.html>. We could pull
>>>>>>> the size and period from a known distribution or distributions though not
>>>>>>> sure what to pick.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development <
>>>>>>> bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this
>>>>>>>> paper is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to
>>>>>>>> dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations become
>>>>>>>> different. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if new flows
>>>>>>>> enter and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typical 30ms
>>>>>>>> broadband path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows enter
>>>>>>>> and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUBIC will
>>>>>>>> not be able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, with
>>>>>>>> 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec,  if new flows enter and cause loss
>>>>>>>> more frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be able
>>>>>>>> to utilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve itself in
>>>>>>>> some very typical kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BBR is not trying to maintain a higher throughput than CUBIC in
>>>>>>>> these kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BBR is trying to be
>>>>>>>> robust to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in the real world
>>>>>>>> when there are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottleneck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>> neal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bloat <
>>>>>>>> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would
>>>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>>>> if we plugged some different assumptions into their model.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> FQ World Domination pending:
>>>>>>>>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Bloat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>>>>>>>>
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