Re: [Bloat] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem

Re: [Bloat] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem

[Rich Brown]

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I had an especially rewarding interaction on Reddit the other day. (
https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/1d5dejy/bufferbloat_in_speed_tests_but_ping_doesnt_spike/
)

The initial message was a fellow was saying that speed tests were showing
bufferbloat, but his ISP said all was good. There were multiple
interchanges - here's a summary:

I started to say, "Maybe things are OK then..." and he said, "Well, I'm a
gamer, and bullet registration is off..."

So I asked for a Waveform test. In true non-believer fashion, he asked, "Is
it *possible* to have bufferbloat on X equipment?" I said I don't know -
run the test.

He did, and he did (have bufferbloat - a bit). I explained how a bunch of
60-110msec samples might be enough to cause his hits to go awry.

We were about to get to the question I dread: "How can I fix this?" This is
the  leap-of-faith moment, where we end up saying in essence:

Your vendor(s) lied to you. You can fix this yourself. Just buy a spare
> router and install some Open Source software...
>

I always fear this moment because there's such a high likelihood of getting
egg on the face from one or many of the reasons listed in the original
post. If they happen, I usually slink away, and say to check the "What Can
I Do About Bufferbloat" page.

Fortunately, he had a Ubiquiti UDM Pro, so he said, "Hey, I turned on smart
queues and it looks way better." With that sticky point out of the way,
there were several more interchanges where I got to say that both the
router and the Wi-Fi can create bufferbloat and that these bufferbloat
measurement tools are only broad indicators of "network goodness".

So this is one circumstance where it worked out. But I ache to have some
advice to address the dread-causing question. Any thoughts? Thanks.

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Re: [Bloat] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Rich,


> On 5. Jun 2024, at 01:05, Rich Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> I had an especially rewarding interaction on Reddit the other day. (https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/1d5dejy/bufferbloat_in_speed_tests_but_ping_doesnt_spike/) 
> 
> The initial message was a fellow was saying that speed tests were showing bufferbloat, but his ISP said all was good. There were multiple interchanges - here's a summary:
> 
> I started to say, "Maybe things are OK then..." and he said, "Well, I'm a gamer, and bullet registration is off..."
> 
> So I asked for a Waveform test. In true non-believer fashion, he asked, "Is it possible to have bufferbloat on X equipment?" I said I don't know - run the test. 
> 
> He did, and he did (have bufferbloat - a bit). I explained how a bunch of 60-110msec samples might be enough to cause his hits to go awry.
> 
> We were about to get to the question I dread: "How can I fix this?" This is the  leap-of-faith moment, where we end up saying in essence:
> 
>> Your vendor(s) lied to you. You can fix this yourself. Just buy a spare router and install some Open Source software...
> 
> 
> I always fear this moment because there's such a high likelihood of getting egg on the face from one or many of the reasons listed in the original post. If they happen, I usually slink away, and say to check the "What Can I Do About Bufferbloat" page.

[SM] This sounds very familiar... there seems to be quite a lot of activation energy for users to switch their router/router-OS, so when ever we can offer remedies short of 'switch to OpenWrt' we have a higher likelihood of being able to make them try it. Being in Germany it is quite helpful that most popular independent router maker AVM with its FritzBox line, actually implemented part of our solution and allows to enable ingress-shaping, which will instantiate a HTB shaper and cake for ingress traffic... Not necessarily in the most tricked-out/optimised configuration, but what they do offer is plenty better than nothing and has a low activation energy :)

> 
> Fortunately, he had a Ubiquiti UDM Pro, so he said, "Hey, I turned on smart queues and it looks way better." With that sticky point out of the way, there were several more interchanges where I got to say that both the router and the Wi-Fi can create bufferbloat and that these bufferbloat measurement tools are only broad indicators of "network goodness".

[SM] Exactly, not having to switch their existing hard ware goes a long way, as testing whether the proposed remedy has merit is easy enough for folks to try.

> So this is one circumstance where it worked out. But I ache to have some advice to address the dread-causing question. Any thoughts? Thanks.

[SM] I come up blank, but I have encountered the same issue, although I have never analysed it as deeply and well as you did.

Regards
	Sebastian


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