From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F5FB3B29D for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2024 19:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dfa79233c48so4609452276.1 for ; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 16:05:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1717542345; x=1718147145; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IJpQmpgDHO0ThwE5fRhn8iYS5/j/PmnAYF/V0s3dwpk=; b=Ca71nQRsUTvz8ljWgTqdQQo7MDkdJ6PmyKH9JEpUDvVEPmEoWq70xACrhDavIEd/Nk GGpPgDJakorDQ8bbLCDloNVpTZ1t4KMU9dn9f/4w/7ucyuX+itNmtAjL9n4PKIbNqm3E 5oT7ILGzDNrPsH0D46lTG4DqthYe3t1D2N2bz2ITI4zGC4i8+grBxNOC/Bgb2X8RZI2j V7xPjMW4PGhFu6Igdi/pdcd6Jk7jwS3zWSBT2olpRLde7XANEE4z1YY/R5H2dv6XOw5+ nV4w272y5tn+T/jvO4bncKcrnuVpbTbCk/2M+jGjmaPLNUxr2Apeeeu3/6pjTysS0au0 XWDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717542345; x=1718147145; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IJpQmpgDHO0ThwE5fRhn8iYS5/j/PmnAYF/V0s3dwpk=; b=ZqByBmN+Z+B2c07mFjF7Qt+pxzGH7aG3tznJByj5awDvSwCvvGxzSb1+iQahvAh+CW CfPr0e8iibwcvVUZHS4oIis7dLmCazNZAAiaWJMf7P4+5L1mFUnX8WX0mfLcL6WngV/O f3vs8aQYq+QWbProUXDeJhj+VX6FryV9Gbr+5k5UicBa+OfPqEoQsLpajBfRJvT60MNy ypdpozzmYKt/Rpc6ge2Tay1KmTi49qAcDiN/eYq58VC8CHfz+BTwin9QoMHKB4JWoga0 bvPyKJ2Sb6nOc0XIXG5g1JWabX9tQ0eVsc4yAROJ+ysef6H4KAiGwCX4M9Wc7LCyKZtW yQTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyF52PMrjqhIDnHrq+2Tdd7UHgkuRUevNzNYCBorRtctLCGig23 qIL0LciGrdKe5iADWWy6alwMcGxb++yRMqjjL8nujWKGwbxSZpReIkUTfR8ZUs1lenVO5q9kJHe tqcvH4VZvnSDkA06wTKi9L2Q/cX+/Ug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHkJwomHZ4uJrd6s5eRL51KtpGP7DkVkcFE0ySQMGMUI9ri6L1V0VDYVa1jdgUj7JN95R0KAf+5PMWz+O1vlL0= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c783:0:b0:de4:680c:1a16 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dfacacee40fmr885789276.50.1717542344887; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 16:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 4 Jun 2024 16:05:43 -0700 Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 4 Jun 2024 16:05:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mimestream 1.3.4) From: Rich Brown Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 16:05:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a9525061a187dde" Subject: Re: [Bloat] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2024 23:05:45 -0000 --0000000000005a9525061a187dde Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I had an especially rewarding interaction on Reddit the other day. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/1d5dejy/bufferbloat_in_speed_tests_but_ping_doesnt_spike/ ) The initial message was a fellow was saying that speed tests were showing bufferbloat, but his ISP said all was good. There were multiple interchanges - here's a summary: I started to say, "Maybe things are OK then..." and he said, "Well, I'm a gamer, and bullet registration is off..." So I asked for a Waveform test. In true non-believer fashion, he asked, "Is it *possible* to have bufferbloat on X equipment?" I said I don't know - run the test. He did, and he did (have bufferbloat - a bit). I explained how a bunch of 60-110msec samples might be enough to cause his hits to go awry. We were about to get to the question I dread: "How can I fix this?" This is the leap-of-faith moment, where we end up saying in essence: Your vendor(s) lied to you. You can fix this yourself. Just buy a spare > router and install some Open Source software... > I always fear this moment because there's such a high likelihood of getting egg on the face from one or many of the reasons listed in the original post. If they happen, I usually slink away, and say to check the "What Can I Do About Bufferbloat" page. Fortunately, he had a Ubiquiti UDM Pro, so he said, "Hey, I turned on smart queues and it looks way better." With that sticky point out of the way, there were several more interchanges where I got to say that both the router and the Wi-Fi can create bufferbloat and that these bufferbloat measurement tools are only broad indicators of "network goodness". So this is one circumstance where it worked out. But I ache to have some advice to address the dread-causing question. Any thoughts? Thanks. --0000000000005a9525061a187dde Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had an especially rewarding interaction on R= eddit the other day. (https://www.r= eddit.com/r/networking/comments/1d5dejy/bufferbloat_in_speed_tests_but_ping= _doesnt_spike/)=C2=A0

= The initial message was a fellow was saying that speed tests were showing b= ufferbloat, but his ISP said all was good. There were multiple interchanges= - here's a summary:

I= started to say, "Maybe things are OK then..." and he said, "= ;Well, I'm a gamer, and bullet registration is off..."

So I asked for a Waveform test. In tr= ue non-believer fashion, he asked, "Is it=C2=A0possible=C2=A0to= have bufferbloat on X equipment?" I said I don't know - run the t= est.=C2=A0

He did, and he = did (have bufferbloat - a bit). I explained how a bunch of 60-110msec sampl= es might be enough to cause his hits to go awry.

=
We were about to get to the question I dread: "= How can I fix this?" This is the =C2=A0leap-of-faith moment, where we = end up saying in essence:

Your vendor(s) lied to you. You can fix this yourse= lf. Just buy a spare router and install some Open Source software...
<= /blockquote>

I always fear this = moment because there's such a high likelihood of getting egg on the fac= e from one or many of the reasons listed in the original post. If they happ= en, I usually slink away, and say to check the "What Can I Do About Bu= fferbloat" page.

Fort= unately, he had a Ubiquiti UDM Pro, so he said, "Hey, I turned on smar= t queues and it looks way better." With that sticky point out of the w= ay, there were several more interchanges where I got to say that both the r= outer and the Wi-Fi can create bufferbloat and that these bufferbloat measu= rement tools are only broad indicators of "network goodness".

So this is one circumstance w= here it worked out. But I ache to have some advice to address the dread-cau= sing question. Any thoughts? Thanks.

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