From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E57F62000B9 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibt6 with SMTP id t6so16286565wib.0 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:36:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=neIIma5i6RXRol5ORM0WsWXLUNSQqNiQZqKycJhuhtQ=; b=nQpb051F2zaFw85MyqegTBr7RaVVAGooAUPxRhr32wg/6/Vfon1KFl+iDKR/9dJa+p CwYaDnqc2QIA4LUZmKGNhLaqchI7GANIf2eDVUOXzly2n7JoFpARA8ryOINYdPEaMFNy 1cMyZnIALlcYfLD/eomXAkitdYF/wWMwcylB+wC9MV1RZIaa0bEecUdQVtgZ0IeHeF+i 5k6nB3kxYxXY88E8Ocwj2apskahcl8AJlacHOXMHDP725GoqBO3kpzfLyZLRi5Z98yE9 PcaZ+d1xXVZOvOIsb2zPXW32lnRWAaaGEsA/P6//a2MqemCfi0OXxhEntx4V6bHo7XYT smog== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.177.133 with SMTP id cq5mr5646501wjc.145.1432218394991; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.194.118.166 with HTTP; Thu, 21 May 2015 07:26:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <58264BE0-CDBE-4739-B03D-4BAA20B13997@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:26:34 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WOgmveN9Z2powJPa4mmfE_ajSZ4 Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Rich Brown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01494276aca14c05169854c9 Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] dslreports mockup X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:38:35 -0000 --089e01494276aca14c05169854c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Rich Brown wrote: > Ahah! I wasn't clear. I do want One Grade to Rule Them All... > > But I was only talking about different Y-axis values on the latency > charts, so that a bad latency in one direction doesn't hide the details o= f > the transfer in the other. > > =E2=80=8BAh, yes. That makes sense. - Jim =E2=80=8B > Rich > > On May 21, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > Providing separate grades for upload and download does not make sense to > me, as interference with acks in the other direction badly hurts that > traffic. Uploads and downloads are *not* independent variables. > > KISS: one grade.... > - Jim > > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Rich Brown > wrote: > >> That is interesting. I'm trying to think how the latency charts could be >> misconstrued, since a Y-axis on the right isn't the norm - I don't think >> it's hard to understand, but just different. >> >> The display as-is clearly shows that the download is badly bloated, but >> the upload is fine. That's the important message for most people at home= . >> But as a researcher, you want to understand the details of the upload. S= o >> having different scales would help you see better into the problem. >> >> * If the download and upload values are substantially similar, the left >> and right Y-axis scales should be the same, so there wouldn't be confusi= on >> >> * If the values are substantially different (as in this screen shot), th= e >> pink and yellow backgrounds (on the left) and the lack of them on the ri= ght >> would provide a solid cue that there is something different going on >> between the two charts. >> >> * On the other hand, the report already shows different Y-axis values fo= r >> the down/upload speeds, so the latency charts could mimic the speeds... >> >> Other thoughts? >> >> Rich >> >> On May 20, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> > I wanted to be able to have separated charts for up and down on >> > different scales, so I took apart what exists today in gimp and got >> > this: >> > >> > http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/dslreportsmockup.png >> > >> > I guess it is partially because I am getting a C on the download at >> > this speed, and no A+ on the upload, and I would at least like to get >> > a gold star from teacher for effort. :/ >> > >> > I dunno how to fix the download short of getting rid of several >> > seconds of inherent buffering in their CMTS. There must be a simple >> > way to do that?? >> > >> > -- >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht >> > Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** >> > >> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bloat mailing list >> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > > > --089e01494276aca14c05169854c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Ma= y 21, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
Ahah! I wasn't clear. I do want One Grade to Rule Them All...<= div>
But I was only talking about different Y-axis values on = the latency charts, so that a bad latency in one direction doesn't hide= the details of the transfer in the other.

=E2=80=8BAh, yes.=C2=A0 That makes sense.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Jim
=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
=
Rich

On May 21, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
= Providing separate grades for upload and download does not make sense to me= , as interference with acks in the other direction badly hurts that traffic= . Uploads and downloads are *not* independent variables.

KISS: one grade.= ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Jim

<= /div>

On Thu= , May 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
That is interesting. I&#= 39;m trying to think how the latency charts could be misconstrued, since a = Y-axis on the right isn't the norm - I don't think it's hard to= understand, but just different.

The display as-is clearly shows that the download is badly bloated, but the= upload is fine. That's the important message for most people at home.= =C2=A0 But as a researcher, you want to understand the details of the uploa= d. So having different scales would help you see better into the problem.
* If the download and upload values are substantially similar, the left and= right Y-axis scales should be the same, so there wouldn't be confusion=

* If the values are substantially different (as in this screen shot), the p= ink and yellow backgrounds (on the left) and the lack of them on the right = would provide a solid cue that there is something different going on betwee= n the two charts.

* On the other hand, the report already shows different Y-axis values for t= he down/upload speeds, so the latency charts could mimic the speeds...

Other thoughts?

Rich

On May 20, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wanted to be able to have separated charts for up and down on
> different scales, so I took apart what exists today in gimp and got > this:
>
> http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/dslreportsmockup.png=
>
> I guess it is partially because I am getting a C on the download at > this speed, and no A+ on the upload, and I would at least like to get<= br> > a gold star from teacher for effort. :/
>
> I dunno how to fix the download short of getting rid of several
> seconds of inherent buffering in their CMTS. There must be a simple > way to do that??
>
> --
> Dave T=C3=A4ht
> Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware**
>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr= 67
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat= @lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
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