From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com (mail-wm0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2DE93B2A3 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id g23so192264300wme.1 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:16:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=RJxbhWBM9QHj1hWA7GSNWZLWRw3IpR5k7alF4+yefmE=; b=YzfjlQs+il2b25HhviUtNWRjmGQOdYRmevCo3IWVT0f9Gu91YhAa6H3zX49D7UhOC6 18VC+6ZDwuEuVFN0T9lefT9WIXuZzmk3a3SzXh8b73ClFw5kWUOqLHcTJs5WKTeyQ8K8 HOO7vGQFiTp92zg7ej3G6UUK8o3AfhX9VmDHbOi065bwihqWbPffE/ysapoZF3jPv0Xe mQEXyuWW1Ct51yQAkLyKJOGKdpd4DbtcoQKFmD1ZQ1jHOSU73LM2JLerJL02P8V6QRqE 4SsZc2x1gqFixxmPiE5c49XdFwEnrzgIsJyVpAU0PC2LYbhlZCfm8tzd5aKfpesLbmFZ +seA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RJxbhWBM9QHj1hWA7GSNWZLWRw3IpR5k7alF4+yefmE=; b=hltw2jpVBhWVABkK8BMX6hIptmmYLVvrQbDuzQtiMMt/N+HxAqk6XHS9Gqts/P1RlJ pOKW9ExEG6K1/kX7NYLtkFzvH/ygihuOhhrk0/IkZkt4Nb5sRg4Zq2ATzsXlDv8v+Evr IlVmBjOQjNevrktVGZF0f12tEdOv9pAg5GwAY55DL5UE++8aQ45DNPSmOu3WLZWXjXqv LYjGvk1WhMMn6HK8glYJWbc2HD67np+xQl8MPz6gKf7aRdsp7IWs67lI9EbwLQ/geKUV nMXF7jgOsn9AIrpINmP8RLsmhgilq4rK3KusiDE3v3HTYZxg20vXNHeQdZ5ZShC0pD8C BB7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC00SrkHStEBDHJRefD+gNHEA2Mj+ytIRzSWUex9V98ZNd0J9ACF5L0pZUnugeSIhLUoHVOKt+L3iIHZXFw== X-Received: by 10.28.143.20 with SMTP id r20mr16212292wmd.2.1480299414913; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:16:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.194.187.139 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:16:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <65cde0ee-4cc8-22c8-5274-a4eafe9cf338@pollere.com> References: <548F6875-8670-4784-8A4D-9D4E6F0F20BD@gmail.com> <65cde0ee-4cc8-22c8-5274-a4eafe9cf338@pollere.com> From: Jim Gettys Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:16:54 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: KYfdQC5avTm0OWreplEVzqxPGzI Message-ID: To: Kathleen Nichols Cc: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114697d8c9887c05425310cc Subject: Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 02:16:56 -0000 --001a114697d8c9887c05425310cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This went by in a previous posting I made: Ookla may have made themselves long term irrelevant by their recent behavior. When your customers start funding development of a replacement (as Comcast has), you know they aren't happy. So I don't sweat Ookla: helping out the Comcast test effort is probably the best way to get bufferbloat in front of everyone, and best yet, the code for the tests is out there. - Jim On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Kathleen Nichols wrote: > > I never have any problem hearing you, Dave. > > Random stuff in-line. > > On 11/27/16 1:24 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > There *are* 430+ other minds on this mailing list, and probably a few > > AIs. > > > > Sometimes I worry that most of our postings go into spamboxes now, > > or that we've somehow completely burned people out since our heyday > > in 2012. > > > > knock, knock - is this mic on? > > > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Rich Brown > > wrote: > ... > >> > >> My impression is that we have reached a strong technical point. We > >> have solved some really hard, really significant problems. We are > >> in a position to Declare Victory on a large part of the problem, > >> even though there are loads of details to clean up. > > I think this is important. Some really good work has been done by a lot of > people on this list and I have found it interesting, enlightening and > gratifying to > put some small bit of a solution out there and have people grab it, > improve it, > add to it and make it real. So I think people doing that work should pat > themselves on the > back. > >> > >> Most of the suggestions in this thread deal with Getting the Word > >> Out. That's good - that's the declaring victory part. The bad news > >> is that this is not our collective skill set. > > So that's the hard part. Who do you need to Get the Word Out to and what > do you expect them to do? It sounds like there are some edge router > improvements coming. It's possible that some companies are using the > work but they are advertising what it does for the customer not where it > came from or what it is technically. So that might be a victory. > >> > ... > >> 4) Do we know people at any of the cell phone companies, or router > >> vendors on whom we could try one last push? > >> > >> As part of organizing my thoughts for this note, I also collected > >> the following ideas from this thread. I add my $0.02 below. > > Well, getting cellular networks on board would be a coup. > >> > >> Rich > >> > >> 1) I don't see that Ookla has much incentive to include bufferbloat > >> measurements in their test, since they private-label it for lots of > >> ISPs who (presumably) wouldn't want their CPE to be proven crappy. > >> ("It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his > >> salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair) > > This is, sadly, likely correct. > >> > >> 2) The gamer community seems like such a perfect target for these > >> improvements. But I fear that the thought leaders are so wrapped up > >> in the fame generated by their own clever QoS tricks that they > >> can't believe that fq_codel plus the make-wifi-fast fixes could > >> possibly address such a complicated subject. (Upton Sinclair, > >> again.) > > But where do you find who benefits and who can have an effect? I don't > know anything about these traffic patterns but would be interested in > seeing them if possible. > >> > >> 3) On the other hand, Comcast (whose DOCSIS modems *might* someday > >> support PIE or other SQM) is in a position to benefit from an > >> increased awareness of the phenomenon, leaving a little ray of > >> hope. > > I don't know. I think it has to be a more serious goal at Comcast. The > bufferbloat measurement devices they sent out were electrically > problematic, taking our signal down and reducing bandwidth. This seems > like one step above skunkworks. > ... > >> 6) It *is* a good idea to think about attracting the attention of > >> vendors who are hurt by bufferbloat - VoIP, video streaming folks, > >> gaming companies, etc. But it feels like the wrong end of the lever > >> - a gaming company can't fix crappy CPE, and they're stuck saying > > Yes, it's hard for the victims unless there is an alternative or they > wield a large amount of coordinated monetary power. The video streaming > folks, from my measurements, are trashing themselves. Why are they > creating such huge bursts? Why send out bursts that are going to arrive > at the same time? This isn't a bufferbloat problem really, it's a clue > problem. > >> > >> 7) Cell phones are another place that obviously would benefit, > >> although, again, it's hard to break through the notion that "It's > >> always been like that..." > > Yes, but who would benefit? Is it a content company that could put > pressure on some carrier? > >> > >> What else? > > This is good thinking, Rich, but the business side of the current > "ecosystem" seems disincentivized to progress. > >> > >> Rich > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list > >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --001a114697d8c9887c05425310cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thi= s went by in a previous posting I made:

Ookla may have made themselves long term irrelevant by their= recent behavior.=C2=A0 When your customers start funding development of a = replacement (as Comcast has), you know they aren't happy.

So I don't sweat Ookla: helping ou= t the Comcast test effort is probably the best way to get bufferbloat in fr= ont of everyone, and best yet, the code for the tests is out there.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Jim


On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Kathleen Nichols <= nichols@pollere.co= m> wrote:

I never have any problem hearing you, Dave.

Random stuff in-line.

On 11/27/16 1:24 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
> There *are* 430+ other minds on this mailing list, and probably a few<= br> > AIs.
>
> Sometimes I worry that most of our postings go into spamboxes now,
> or that we've somehow completely burned people out since our heyda= y
> in 2012.
>
> knock, knock - is this mic on?
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
> wrote:
...
>>
>> My impression is that we have reached a strong technical point. We=
>> have solved some really hard, really significant problems. We are<= br> >> in a position to Declare Victory on a large part of the problem, >> even though there are loads of details to clean up.

I think this is important. Some really good work has been done by a = lot of
people on this list and I have found it interesting, enlightening and
gratifying to
put some small bit of a solution out there and have people grab it,
improve it,
add to it and make it real. So I think people doing that work should pat themselves on the
back.
>>
>> Most of the suggestions in this thread deal with Getting the Word<= br> >> Out. That's good - that's the declaring victory part. The = bad news
>> is that this is not our collective skill set.

So that's the hard part. Who do you need to Get the Word Out to = and what
do you expect them to do? It sounds like there are some edge router
improvements coming. It's possible that some companies are using the work but they are advertising what it does for the customer not where it came from or what it is technically. So that might be a victory.
>>
...
>> 4) Do we know people at any of the cell phone com= panies, or router
>> vendors on whom we could try one last push?
>>
>> As part of organizing my thoughts for this note, I also collected<= br> >> the following ideas from this thread. I add my $0.02 below.

Well, getting cellular networks on board would be a coup.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> 1) I don't see that Ookla has much incentive to include buffer= bloat
>> measurements in their test, since they private-label it for lots o= f
>> ISPs who (presumably) wouldn't want their CPE to be proven cra= ppy.
>> ("It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when = his
>> salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclai= r)

This is, sadly, likely correct.
>>
>> 2) The gamer community seems like such a perfect target for these<= br> >> improvements. But I fear that the thought leaders are so wrapped u= p
>> in the fame generated by their own clever QoS tricks that they
>> can't believe that fq_codel plus the make-wifi-fast fixes coul= d
>> possibly address such a complicated subject. (Upton Sinclair,
>> again.)

But where do you find who benefits and who can have an effect? I don= 't
know anything about these traffic patterns but would be interested in
seeing them if possible.
>>
>> 3) On the other hand, Comcast (whose DOCSIS modems *might* someday=
>> support PIE or other SQM) is in a position to benefit from an
>> increased awareness of the phenomenon, leaving a little ray of
>> hope.

I don't know. I think it has to be a more serious goal at Comcas= t. The
bufferbloat measurement devices they sent out were electrically
problematic, taking our signal down and reducing bandwidth.=C2=A0 This seem= s
like one step above skunkworks.
...
>> 6) It *is* a good idea to think about attracting = the attention of
>> vendors who are hurt by bufferbloat - VoIP, video streaming folks,=
>> gaming companies, etc. But it feels like the wrong end of the leve= r
>> - a gaming company can't fix crappy CPE, and they're stuck= saying

Yes, it's hard for the victims unless there is an alternative or= they
wield a large amount of coordinated monetary power. The video streaming
folks, from my measurements, are trashing themselves. Why are they
creating such huge bursts? Why send out bursts that are going to arrive
at the same time? This isn't a bufferbloat problem really, it's a c= lue
problem.
>>
>> 7) Cell phones are another place that obviously would benefit,
>> although, again, it's hard to break through the notion that &q= uot;It's
>> always been like that..."

Yes, but who would benefit? Is it a content company that could put pressure on some carrier?
>>
>> What else?

This is good thinking, Rich, but the business side of the current
"ecosystem" seems disincentivized to progress.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing= list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferb= loat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/blo= at
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

--001a114697d8c9887c05425310cc--