From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yk0-x22b.google.com (mail-yk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0316A21F2D8 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykeo186 with SMTP id o186so17409915yke.0 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:31:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=iZ95KlC4fIqvWPzisUNIFKuJMj4iaI/alg3o7kd6z1w=; b=WOB4LDOnHFiuaIBTKsjr1gCzg5SJyMnSdFZZmBPJ4RqQdmy8kzN2pSReE8RpqbB8Ve 66MfMZUvqxw8jbWRSjwX8x1LNn2wjUhCY5SF3ooriZbqwpqCwL2W558ZnwIFF7Vsz1Mo TEbgqByWrzwU67+Nrpio/UuIbcrwfxZNHs01yUvRIzAPJjhJo1gUfNgDYepLD/8VQTtl nJnYiL5DfpIl/7XvfFzxINW8IEXwiiv6ThDUYPlCVel3cQn/cUObfxzDy3JfBJdGTJ7t Zt7lsSq/X+kPRDq5JFXADm8Ldf6IAGO0cWIjIVOtKghP2YCvSi6m24EhpF6ExRh+CtUM s7WA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.170.121.214 with SMTP id n205mr4766101ykb.98.1430461871644; Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: justinbeech@gmail.com Received: by 10.13.217.132 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:31:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87618e6gkm.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <58258E43-953F-4A3B-ABC0-EA4193CC67C1@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 16:31:11 +1000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bP5lGcSnzuFqSfL2wHnKwmSKF5E Message-ID: From: jb To: Dave Taht , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1137b102b965e20514ff5b43 Subject: Re: [Bloat] extremely good dslreports result for bufferbloat on free.fr X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 06:31:41 -0000 --001a1137b102b965e20514ff5b43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the enormous load spike. I think there will always be the occasional incorrectly graded test, this one is simply because the median of the downstream latency ignores the spike. If I used average(), then it would not ignore the spike, however one very high outlier could also ruin a good result. After all, pinging anything on the internet can always get the odd bad response now and again. If neither average nor median is any good, then there needs to be a filter function. But what filter? ignoring spikes that are hugely higher than neighbouring ones? that would fail if there was a spike every 3rd sample. Open to ideas.. Here is a result from the australian telco free public hotspot: http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/399962 On the side of the hotspot it says 'send us your thoughts about this free service'. Well my thought is that if one person posted a picture to Instagram, the whole hotspot would be unusable for as long as it took to upload. 6 seconds of buffer in there somewhere. cheers, On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the > enormous load spike. > > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/400387 > > Imagine if your steering wheel behaved like this. > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jb wrote: > > Already users are like "how can i fix this!". > > The FAQ can be improved. > > > I've just replied to one who has lower speeds on the surfboard SB6141 > which > > is a modem designed for crazy cable speeds. He has an "F" and his > downstream > > bloat is terrible, and upstream not much better. > > > > I imagine a LOT of people on slower plans have a "recommended" modem li= ke > > this one. > > I have not found a cable modem with less than 250ms bloat at 50mbit/5. > The docsis 3 ones > are often in the 800 ms range. > > > > > However most of them will hear that the problems from bloat only happen > when > > you reach maximum upload or download speed and will think, well, I can > live > > with that, I never run my connection to capacity and I don't upload to > > offsite backups.. > > Latency spikes are annoying no matter how they are inflicted, and happen > all the time on nearly any workload. Your test is testing tcp in steady > state, > most web transactions are bursts of dozens to a hundred flows in slow > start. > > It is the business class customers that feel it most often. I have never > visited a business class cable customer that had reasonable amounts of > delay > and jitter during business hours. > > After living in bloat-free universe for quite some time now, annoying > issues with things like netflix are decreased, voip and videoconferencing > work all the time, same for games... > > it would be hard to create a metric > for user satisfaction, but every before/after comparison someone > implementing a solution is quite overjoyed. > > https://twitter.com/mnot/status/575581792650018816 > > > > > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Rich Brown > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 9:33 PM, jb wrote: > >> > ... > >> >> if it did get a rating it would be an "D" or "F".. > >> > > >> > How about "E" for error? That can be further explained in the text > >> > "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaquately test for it= - > >> > and other times there is something else badly wrong with the link th= at > >> > we cannot identify." > >> > >> I would stay away from a letter grade for that state, since it could > >> appear to be on the continuum of A+, A, B, C, D, E (?) F... > >> > >> Better to give it a "-" or "?" mark. And if they hover over the "?", l= et > >> the text show: "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaquatel= y > test > >> for it - and other times there is something else badly wrong with the > link > >> that we cannot identify." > >> > >> Rich > > > > > > > > -- > Dave T=C3=A4ht > Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** > > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67 > --001a1137b102b965e20514ff5b43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>This got an A+ rating, = which I would not have given it, given the
enormous load spike.

I think there will always be th= e occasional incorrectly graded test,
this one is simply because = the median of the downstream latency=C2=A0
ignores the spike. If = I used average(), then it would not ignore
the spike, however one= very high outlier could also ruin a good result.
After all, ping= ing anything on the internet can always get the odd
bad response = now and again.

If neither average nor median is an= y good, then there needs to be=C2=A0
a filter function. But what = filter? ignoring spikes that are hugely higher
than neighbouring = ones? that would fail if there was a spike every 3rd
sample. Open= to ideas..

Here is a result from the australian t= elco free public hotspot:



On Fri, May 1, 2= 015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
=
This got an A+ rating, which I would not hav= e given it, given the
enormous load spike.

ht= tp://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/400387

Imagine if your steering wheel behaved like this.

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jb <= justin@dslr.net> wrote:
> Already users are like "how can i fix this!".

The FAQ can be improved.

> I've just replied to one who has lower speeds on the surfboard SB6= 141 which
> is a modem designed for crazy cable speeds. He has an "F" an= d his downstream
> bloat is terrible, and upstream not much better.
>
> I imagine a LOT of people on slower plans have a "recommended&quo= t; modem like
> this one.

I have not found a cable modem with less than 250ms bloat at 50mbit/= 5.
The docsis 3 ones
are often in the 800 ms range.

>
> However most of them will hear that the problems from bloat only happe= n when
> you reach maximum upload or download speed and will think, well, I can= live
> with that, I never run my connection to capacity and I don't uploa= d to
> offsite backups..

Latency spikes are annoying no matter how they are inflicted, and ha= ppen
all the time on nearly any workload. Your test is testing tcp in steady sta= te,
most web transactions are bursts of dozens to a hundred flows in slow
start.

It is the business class customers that feel it most often. I have never visited a business class cable customer that had reasonable amounts of dela= y
and jitter during business hours.

After living in=C2=A0 bloat-free universe for quite some time now, annoying=
issues with things like netflix are decreased, voip and videoconferencing work all the time, same for games...

it would be hard to create a metric
for user satisfaction, but every before/after comparison someone
implementing a solution is quite overjoyed.

https://twitter.com/mnot/status/575581792650018816

>
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 9:33 PM, jb <justin@dslr.net> wrote:
>> > ...
>> >> if it did get a rating it would be an "D" or &q= uot;F"..
>> >
>> > How about "E" for error? That can be further explai= ned in the text
>> > "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaquately= test for it -
>> > and other times there is something else badly wrong with the = link that
>> > we cannot identify."
>>
>> I would stay away from a letter grade for that state, since it cou= ld
>> appear to be on the continuum of A+, A, B, C, D, E (?) F...
>>
>> Better to give it a "-" or "?" mark. And if th= ey hover over the "?", let
>> the text show: "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot = adaquately test
>> for it - and other times there is something else badly wrong with = the link
>> that we cannot identify."
>>
>> Rich
>
>



--
Dave T=C3=A4ht
Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware**

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67

--001a1137b102b965e20514ff5b43--