From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ig0-x234.google.com (mail-ig0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1F4921F0F0 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 17:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igcau1 with SMTP id au1so21563741igc.1 for ; Thu, 21 May 2015 17:17:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:cc:content-type; bh=7zSYR10Ae9ItHvpMzPFOvqCFI9T1jzopFmT3hNt6VsM=; b=H/sQgRPyEV/2Yzj4fbRXuZ5sVslf5IrJ63MhCfWkqy25gLO+JNpr9f6zDBxoSX+krw Kvu/BwSivDvv/7Z7QD8w3OmSMKcsfO0hHHzybz0v2EfhAa7UPljV5uIltUqCNWHIiuXx m5OlV0woHnvlBHajVY8A9AZowRb8U3UpulGMZJSg1bylJOQDeJzKBtDJmDwWvKAb8RUc k62uGfxFw8BXS+UdTPDnIA3nwr8QjRe4d0fTFGhCq+XT2I3j2zRsE4PnoiolzsrAB1WK 1LOtfsHNZp9g3dsKVPuhHK6KGRk3HoKpI5D9Lgn9+1mBzGAkyFK8E/NDh60XP0gIsYdu iQMA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.129.73 with SMTP id p9mr6269572ics.48.1432253845275; Thu, 21 May 2015 17:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: justinbeech@gmail.com Received: by 10.50.107.42 with HTTP; Thu, 21 May 2015 17:17:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <58264BE0-CDBE-4739-B03D-4BAA20B13997@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 10:17:25 +1000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EFDnSFNjoomEYgwYa37S6xhliSA Message-ID: From: jb Cc: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301af6d9ad0b450516a0959c Subject: Re: [Bloat] dslreports mockup X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 00:18:03 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 00:18:03 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 00:18:03 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 00:18:03 -0000 --20cf301af6d9ad0b450516a0959c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It makes sense. Or I can just have two Y-Axis with auto-scaling on both. On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Rich Brown > wrote: > >> Ahah! I wasn't clear. I do want One Grade to Rule Them All... >> >> But I was only talking about different Y-axis values on the latency >> charts, so that a bad latency in one direction doesn't hide the details = of >> the transfer in the other. >> >> > =E2=80=8BAh, yes. That makes sense. > - Jim > =E2=80=8B > > >> Rich >> >> On May 21, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: >> >> Providing separate grades for upload and download does not make sense to >> me, as interference with acks in the other direction badly hurts that >> traffic. Uploads and downloads are *not* independent variables. >> >> KISS: one grade.... >> - Jim >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Rich Brown >> wrote: >> >>> That is interesting. I'm trying to think how the latency charts could b= e >>> misconstrued, since a Y-axis on the right isn't the norm - I don't thin= k >>> it's hard to understand, but just different. >>> >>> The display as-is clearly shows that the download is badly bloated, but >>> the upload is fine. That's the important message for most people at hom= e. >>> But as a researcher, you want to understand the details of the upload. = So >>> having different scales would help you see better into the problem. >>> >>> * If the download and upload values are substantially similar, the left >>> and right Y-axis scales should be the same, so there wouldn't be confus= ion >>> >>> * If the values are substantially different (as in this screen shot), >>> the pink and yellow backgrounds (on the left) and the lack of them on t= he >>> right would provide a solid cue that there is something different going= on >>> between the two charts. >>> >>> * On the other hand, the report already shows different Y-axis values >>> for the down/upload speeds, so the latency charts could mimic the speed= s... >>> >>> Other thoughts? >>> >>> Rich >>> >>> On May 20, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >>> >>> > I wanted to be able to have separated charts for up and down on >>> > different scales, so I took apart what exists today in gimp and got >>> > this: >>> > >>> > http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/dslreportsmockup.png >>> > >>> > I guess it is partially because I am getting a C on the download at >>> > this speed, and no A+ on the upload, and I would at least like to get >>> > a gold star from teacher for effort. :/ >>> > >>> > I dunno how to fix the download short of getting rid of several >>> > seconds of inherent buffering in their CMTS. There must be a simple >>> > way to do that?? >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Dave T=C3=A4ht >>> > Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** >>> > >>> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Bloat mailing list >>> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > --20cf301af6d9ad0b450516a0959c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It makes sense.

Or I can just have two = Y-Axis with auto-scaling on both.


On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:= 26 AM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:


On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote:
Ahah! I wasn't clear. I = do want One Grade to Rule Them All...

But I was only tal= king about different Y-axis values on the latency charts, so that a bad lat= ency in one direction doesn't hide the details of the transfer in the o= ther.


=E2=80=8BAh, yes.=C2=A0 That makes sens= e.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Jim
=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
Rich

<= div>
On May 21, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:
Providing separate grades for upload and download does not make sens= e to me, as interference with acks in the other direction badly hurts that = traffic. Uploads and downloads are *not* independent variables.

KISS: one= grade....
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Jim


On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.c= om> wrote:
That is interest= ing. I'm trying to think how the latency charts could be misconstrued, = since a Y-axis on the right isn't the norm - I don't think it's= hard to understand, but just different.

The display as-is clearly shows that the download is badly bloated, but the= upload is fine. That's the important message for most people at home.= =C2=A0 But as a researcher, you want to understand the details of the uploa= d. So having different scales would help you see better into the problem.
* If the download and upload values are substantially similar, the left and= right Y-axis scales should be the same, so there wouldn't be confusion=

* If the values are substantially different (as in this screen shot), the p= ink and yellow backgrounds (on the left) and the lack of them on the right = would provide a solid cue that there is something different going on betwee= n the two charts.

* On the other hand, the report already shows different Y-axis values for t= he down/upload speeds, so the latency charts could mimic the speeds...

Other thoughts?

Rich

On May 20, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wanted to be able to have separated charts for up and down on
> different scales, so I took apart what exists today in gimp and got > this:
>
> http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/dslreportsmockup.png=
>
> I guess it is partially because I am getting a C on the download at > this speed, and no A+ on the upload, and I would at least like to get<= br> > a gold star from teacher for effort. :/
>
> I dunno how to fix the download short of getting rid of several
> seconds of inherent buffering in their CMTS. There must be a simple > way to do that??
>
> --
> Dave T=C3=A4ht
> Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware**
>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr= 67
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat= @lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

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Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>
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