From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5942221F2D2 for ; Sat, 2 May 2015 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iget9 with SMTP id t9so41947694ige.1 for ; Sat, 02 May 2015 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=3rVz/xMyj5WgYOGQ6KtZ6WUsSNBbCDtWKbxErEtEvVU=; b=ifJUlVyHUDr6UhdaTyQpcgelYfDWgshAbMSXFHkIFSNqEqVscFCbwCpDs16sAv5fJL XMaUPgQd0dIBNrLSPaUQKCDxCg6NIilQr8O5ILho6d1sm5O8m9rJaDqf2UlW7NPZtnnm thDY1CoHq+L2zGie8AyFypUyp86PD2YumvNfjsgwCGgKalY53WQSMejp1mAyWwpYBz3Y w4UWX7QWbOkN2XpXRWrlGOdVRp0pm0JVvT7OH5dXy4EjPkVeBcWqG/rgpyUw6E4SSwJk xM7h5YQklDcLOx4Rt7cTDWNsVl856jvsHqlZGcJEwVu2tpzP8YuzuxhDCLtmaoyeW2NX fvOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.9.67 with SMTP id j64mr10335887ioi.39.1430574019000; Sat, 02 May 2015 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: justinbeech@gmail.com Received: by 10.50.107.42 with HTTP; Sat, 2 May 2015 06:40:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87618e6gkm.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <58258E43-953F-4A3B-ABC0-EA4193CC67C1@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 23:40:18 +1000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: oMz32iNI9etXrsZauhHVDae7mic Message-ID: From: jb To: Sebastian Moeller , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113df6d63a41b10515197815 Subject: Re: [Bloat] extremely good dslreports result for bufferbloat on free.fr X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 13:40:48 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 13:40:48 -0000 --001a113df6d63a41b10515197815 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Each bar is an individual probe they go out once per second, which determines their position along the X-Axis, and are tagged by color *when they come back*. For the radar plot, the ones showing latencies to each location, it is nothing to do with buffer bloat but there are two green colors super-imposed, the worst and the best of several probes per location. On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Jb, > > I wonder the ping RTT plot, does it show all individual RTT-probes, or is > it showing an aggregate measure per bar? If aggregate which measure > (hopefully the maximum or something close like a high percentile)? > > > Best Regards > Sebastian > > On May 1, 2015, at 08:31 , jb wrote: > > > >This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the > > enormous load spike. > > > > I think there will always be the occasional incorrectly graded test, > > this one is simply because the median of the downstream latency > > ignores the spike. If I used average(), then it would not ignore > > the spike, however one very high outlier could also ruin a good result. > > After all, pinging anything on the internet can always get the odd > > bad response now and again. > > > > If neither average nor median is any good, then there needs to be > > a filter function. But what filter? ignoring spikes that are hugely > higher > > than neighbouring ones? that would fail if there was a spike every 3rd > > sample. Open to ideas.. > > > > Here is a result from the australian telco free public hotspot: > > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/399962 > > > > On the side of the hotspot it says 'send us your thoughts about this > > free service'. Well my thought is that if one person posted a picture > > to Instagram, the whole hotspot would be unusable for as long as it > > took to upload. 6 seconds of buffer in there somewhere. > > > > cheers, > > > > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the > > enormous load spike. > > > > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/400387 > > > > Imagine if your steering wheel behaved like this. > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jb wrote: > > > Already users are like "how can i fix this!". > > > > The FAQ can be improved. > > > > > I've just replied to one who has lower speeds on the surfboard SB6141 > which > > > is a modem designed for crazy cable speeds. He has an "F" and his > downstream > > > bloat is terrible, and upstream not much better. > > > > > > I imagine a LOT of people on slower plans have a "recommended" modem > like > > > this one. > > > > I have not found a cable modem with less than 250ms bloat at 50mbit/5. > > The docsis 3 ones > > are often in the 800 ms range. > > > > > > > > However most of them will hear that the problems from bloat only > happen when > > > you reach maximum upload or download speed and will think, well, I ca= n > live > > > with that, I never run my connection to capacity and I don't upload t= o > > > offsite backups.. > > > > Latency spikes are annoying no matter how they are inflicted, and happe= n > > all the time on nearly any workload. Your test is testing tcp in steady > state, > > most web transactions are bursts of dozens to a hundred flows in slow > > start. > > > > It is the business class customers that feel it most often. I have neve= r > > visited a business class cable customer that had reasonable amounts of > delay > > and jitter during business hours. > > > > After living in bloat-free universe for quite some time now, annoying > > issues with things like netflix are decreased, voip and videoconferenci= ng > > work all the time, same for games... > > > > it would be hard to create a metric > > for user satisfaction, but every before/after comparison someone > > implementing a solution is quite overjoyed. > > > > https://twitter.com/mnot/status/575581792650018816 > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Rich Brown > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 9:33 PM, jb wrote: > > >> > ... > > >> >> if it did get a rating it would be an "D" or "F".. > > >> > > > >> > How about "E" for error? That can be further explained in the text > > >> > "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaquately test for > it - > > >> > and other times there is something else badly wrong with the link > that > > >> > we cannot identify." > > >> > > >> I would stay away from a letter grade for that state, since it could > > >> appear to be on the continuum of A+, A, B, C, D, E (?) F... > > >> > > >> Better to give it a "-" or "?" mark. And if they hover over the "?", > let > > >> the text show: "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot > adaquately test > > >> for it - and other times there is something else badly wrong with th= e > link > > >> that we cannot identify." > > >> > > >> Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > > Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware** > > > > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr67 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > --001a113df6d63a41b10515197815 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Each bar is an individual probe they go out once per secon= d, which determines their
position along the X-Axis, and are tagged by = color *when they come back*.

For the radar plot, t= he ones showing latencies to each location, it is nothing to do
w= ith buffer bloat but there are two green colors super-imposed, the worst an= d the
best of several probes per location.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 9:49= PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Jb,

I wonder the ping RTT plot, does it show all individual RTT-probes, or is i= t showing an aggregate measure per bar? If aggregate which measure (hopeful= ly the maximum or something close like a high percentile)?


Best Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Sebastian

On May 1, 2015, at 08:31 , jb <justin= @dslr.net> wrote:

> >This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the<= br> > enormous load spike.
>
> I think there will always be the occasional incorrectly graded test, > this one is simply because the median of the downstream latency
> ignores the spike. If I used average(), then it would not ignore
> the spike, however one very high outlier could also ruin a good result= .
> After all, pinging anything on the internet can always get the odd
> bad response now and again.
>
> If neither average nor median is any good, then there needs to be
> a filter function. But what filter? ignoring spikes that are hugely hi= gher
> than neighbouring ones? that would fail if there was a spike every 3rd=
> sample. Open to ideas..
>
> Here is a result from the australian telco free public hotspot:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/399962
>
> On the side of the hotspot it says 'send us your thoughts about th= is
> free service'. Well my thought is that if one person posted a pict= ure
> to Instagram, the whole hotspot would be unusable for as long as it > took to upload. 6 seconds of buffer in there somewhere.
>
> cheers,
>
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> This got an A+ rating, which I would not have given it, given the
> enormous load spike.
>
> http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/400387
>
> Imagine if your steering wheel behaved like this.
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jb <justin@dslr.net> wrote:
> > Already users are like "how can i fix this!".
>
> The FAQ can be improved.
>
> > I've just replied to one who has lower speeds on the surfboar= d SB6141 which
> > is a modem designed for crazy cable speeds. He has an "F&quo= t; and his downstream
> > bloat is terrible, and upstream not much better.
> >
> > I imagine a LOT of people on slower plans have a "recommende= d" modem like
> > this one.
>
> I have not found a cable modem with less than 250ms bloat at 50mbit/5.=
> The docsis 3 ones
> are often in the 800 ms range.
>
> >
> > However most of them will hear that the problems from bloat only = happen when
> > you reach maximum upload or download speed and will think, well, = I can live
> > with that, I never run my connection to capacity and I don't = upload to
> > offsite backups..
>
> Latency spikes are annoying no matter how they are inflicted, and happ= en
> all the time on nearly any workload. Your test is testing tcp in stead= y state,
> most web transactions are bursts of dozens to a hundred flows in slow<= br> > start.
>
> It is the business class customers that feel it most often. I have nev= er
> visited a business class cable customer that had reasonable amounts of= delay
> and jitter during business hours.
>
> After living in=C2=A0 bloat-free universe for quite some time now, ann= oying
> issues with things like netflix are decreased, voip and videoconferenc= ing
> work all the time, same for games...
>
> it would be hard to create a metric
> for user satisfaction, but every before/after comparison someone
> implementing a solution is quite overjoyed.
>
> https://twitter.com/mnot/status/575581792650018816
>
> >
> > On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 9:33 PM, jb <justin@dslr.net> wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> >> if it did get a rating it would be an "D" = or "F"..
> >> >
> >> > How about "E" for error? That can be further e= xplained in the text
> >> > "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we cannot adaqu= ately test for it -
> >> > and other times there is something else badly wrong with= the link that
> >> > we cannot identify."
> >>
> >> I would stay away from a letter grade for that state, since i= t could
> >> appear to be on the continuum of A+, A, B, C, D, E (?) F... > >>
> >> Better to give it a "-" or "?" mark. And = if they hover over the "?", let
> >> the text show: "Sometimes the bloat is so bad that we ca= nnot adaquately test
> >> for it - and other times there is something else badly wrong = with the link
> >> that we cannot identify."
> >>
> >> Rich
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dave T=C3=A4ht
> Open Networking needs **Open Source Hardware**
>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EricRaymond/posts/JqxCe2pFr= 67
>
> __________________= _____________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat= .net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


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