From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DB7021F615 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2015 02:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbpi8 with SMTP id pi8so31042348igb.0 for ; Sat, 06 Jun 2015 02:30:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=w3AVt3WxdPxkbEpJjydxRMS+l30yk+DtQuFdgXco6Jc=; b=fA+eoo6TNa71TBi26NxQLK1P2ueccn1tmOUkYii4LeVbq6O1p5hwlwb2o323GL/hZT XZ7EIzXxA4WMCMsYEaIRgBbumrUUol+YxfQSg78NE8s4yeUR1Zhw5o0m7KFrcHNmAmwB SjYc3dI11Rgy7iMUl4d27h/wFiJSjkZM5TmKTZy8VwmyOln2bCIGpIkT55T6c3qOI6Je yhZ8DxocAdKyKhsjxPoJt3HUIPezWNx9DV92k6ZOrfk9jVeV5Scd01O30KROhNhuqGvt XTumxZq4B05x8ix1kvKIQq2bIZttxEzyRLk6B+5WKr3KRlhVecaqgZzJu4kMq7/vU3L/ 17Fg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.43.227 with SMTP id z3mr2782954igl.22.1433583025102; Sat, 06 Jun 2015 02:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: justinbeech@gmail.com Received: by 10.50.107.42 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Jun 2015 02:30:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5572B325.70307@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> References: <7D4DDC3F-9233-4E07-B59B-AA1368CA9D4E@gmail.com> <5571B334.7050607@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <5571DA4E.5060809@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <5571DC01.70301@k.gg> <5571E1A7.9050403@k.gg> <5571E322.1010403@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> <5571E36E.2050607@k.gg> <5572B325.70307@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 19:30:24 +1000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b8wGv-rCrFNiiIk-sI6qDlCpW84 Message-ID: From: jb To: Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0111c016f7a6b90517d60ecf Cc: Adrian Kennard , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Bloat goes away, but with ~25% speed loss? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 09:30:54 -0000 --089e0111c016f7a6b90517d60ecf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 My 2c - I wasn't planning on creating pages listing ISPs in order of decreasing buffer bloat score. And for speeds of course in the USA and most markets there are ranges of products each with their own speed and price attached, so ranking ISPs by any simple averaging of speeds is pointless as well. However I think there is value in map-based speed results especially ones that pin down average speeds and technologies to streets and towns, and if there is any value at all in grading a single test for bufferbloat (or latency to major cities, or jitter, or packet loss ..) then there is also value in combining those statistics. And even just pure speeds, one can statistically work out products and create interesting comparisons, both spot, and changes over time. Even if, at least in the US, there is no way to switch because your local cable company is your local cable company. There is also value in showing just how far a few ISPs are ahead of everyone. For example, in the USA, any speed ranking would put google fiber far out in front, and Verizon FIOS far in front for upload speed. Why hide that information? There may be a few ISPs that really get on top of buffer bloat as well, and highlighting those, if they exist, makes sense to me. This can be done without doing a top 100 chart full of nonsense. On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Kevin Darbyshire-Bryant < kevin@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> wrote: > On 05/06/2015 21:06, Dave Taht wrote: > > 63% F bloat grade forhttp://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/isp/r3895-Orange%20Broadband > > I was disappointed to see the numbers for free, but wish I had insight > into up vs down for their bloat scores. > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/isp/r2816-Free%20France > > but... so wonderful to sit on a vantage point across the world! Way to > go justin! > > Hi Dave, > > I'd like to urge caution about using 'whole ISP' bufferbloat figures. > In the UK there are quite a few aspects that are quite simply out of an > ISP's control. If I were an ISP I'd get rather annoyed by the 'ISP ranked > by speed results' sites out there, adding bufferbloat, certainly without > up/down split out is adding insult to injury. This is going to be a long > post so feel free to skip/delete :-) > > In the UK for example the delivery technologies are cable (1 supplier, > Virgin Media), adsl (many suppliers), vdsl (1 supplier, BT) Virgin have > most control over CPE kit. ADSL is a free for all. VDSL2 was down to 2 > modems (Huawei & ECI) but this is expanding outward toward free for all > status. > > ADSL cpe is mostly 1 box combined modem/router often supplied by ISP. > VDSL is mostly so far a 2 box solution with 100mbit ethernet twixt > modem/router. Heading more towards 1 box solution (modem/router/wifi) > > In cabled areas Virgin control network. Each region/cabinet has own > level of contention/congestion. Where not cabled area they use adsl > solution provided by BT. > > ADSL on exchange by exchange basis may have BT only presence or 'a.n. > other suppliers' presence, known as LLU eg Talk Talk, Sky etc. If supplier > has no local presence then offers service via BT kit. > > VDSL at present is BT Openreach only kit in near-to-home cabinets. BTO > trunk all data back to the exchange and then (I assume) it's split out > across the various ISP backhaul vlans. > > Backhaul links between exchanges to ISP POPs may be provisioned by own > supplier (eg Sky, TalkTalk) or BT, all at differing bandwidths etc. > > Some ISPs are much better at monitoring lines, latency, usage etc both > CPE and backhaul. A&A are excellent at doing this, not only do they have > the tools, they actually use them! They frequently identify latency > increases (and in extremis packet drops) on backhaul links from their > suppliers (mostly BT) > > A&A are a good example here: A&A are the ISP but they use BT backhaul and > BT Adsl kit to supply service all over the country. They monitor links and > provision (ie purchase) bandwidth from BT with the aim of not being the > bottleneck for their customers. A.N.Other ISP may provide service in > exactly the same way, using the same BT kit but not purchase sufficient > bandwidth. For the sake of completeness, A&A in 'TalkTalk' enabled > exchanges can also use 'TalkTalk' backhaul > > Aside from any ISP backhaul issues or not, 'speed' is fundamentally > limited by 'the last mile' of copper, changing ISP doesn't change that last > mile unless changing technologies (ADSL->Cable->VDSL) There's a > fundamental lack of understanding in this country as to how 'broadband' > actually works and I get dismayed by the many conversations I hear that go > something like "You should use ISP A, they're great, ISP B are crap. Oh > but I use ISP B and they're great and ISP A are crap". This is aside from > 'what do you mean by crap?', slow all the time?, slow when up/downloading? > (ahh, bufferbloat!) (note to self: You really should finish your blog > post on this topic Kevin! > > BT for all their faults, do run rate limiters on the 'downlink' side so as > to not (hopefully) overfill the pipe from ISP to customer (A&A have a means > whereby they rate limit before BT if desired) so I'd like to think that > 'downlink' bufferbloat should be reasonably controlled in this country. > Where it all turns to rat shit is on the uplink, many, many different types > of CPE, little under ISP control/specification (3rd party adsl > router/modems available freely in stores) Add routers running 3rd party > firmware to the mix (OpenWrt, Tomato, Merlin's AsusWrt) > > I guess I'm concerned that another means of beating ISPs is being > developed where the signal to noise ratio is actually very low and sensible > interpretation needs to be applied. If going anywhere near this I think > showing up & down bloat ratings mandatory. > > In the interests of full disclosure I'm not actually an A&A customer > (though I was a few years ago) They're an excellent ISP with superb > customer service and clue. They are probably more expensive than I wished > to pay for...customer service and clue isn't cheap. Whilst my current > supplier (Sky...VDSL2 so actually BTO) is good and so far reasonably > reliable I *instantly* lose the will to live and want to slash my wrists > when speaking to their customer service. I do keep looking at A&A > muttering 'native IPv6, unfiltered, customer service with clue' though. > Breaking away from the 'triple play' service from Sky with the associated > discounts and benefits is going to be hard. Clue isn't cheap. > > I've rambled enough. There's some fun to be had reading Adrian's battles > with his favourite telco, example here: > http://www.revk.uk/2015/02/congestion-case-study.html > > -- > Cheers, > > Kevin@Darbyshire-Bryant.me.uk > > Theresa May is watching YOU on the internet. Join ORG > > https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/2015/this-government-will-put-the-snoopers-charter-and-more-back-on-the-table > > > --089e0111c016f7a6b90517d60ecf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My 2c - I wasn't planning on creating pages listing IS= Ps in order of decreasing buffer bloat score.

And for sp= eeds of course in the USA and most markets there are ranges of products eac= h with their own speed and price attached, so ranking ISPs by any simple av= eraging of speeds is pointless as well.

However I = think there is value in map-based speed results especially ones that pin do= wn average speeds and technologies to streets and towns, and if there is an= y value at all in grading a single test for bufferbloat (or latency to majo= r cities, or jitter, or packet loss ..) then there is also value in combini= ng those statistics.

And even just pure speeds, on= e can statistically work out products and create interesting comparisons, b= oth spot, and changes over time. Even if, at least in the US, there is no w= ay to switch because your local cable company is your local cable company.<= /div>

There is also value in showing just how far a few = ISPs are ahead of everyone.=C2=A0

For example, in = the USA, any speed ranking would put google fiber far out in front, and Ver= izon FIOS far in front for upload speed. Why hide that information? There m= ay be a few ISPs that really get on top of buffer bloat as well, and highli= ghting those, if they exist, makes sense to me. This can be done without do= ing a top 100 chart full of nonsense.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Kevin Darby= shire-Bryant <kevin@darbyshire-bryant.me.uk> wro= te:
=20 =20 =20
On 05/06/2015 21:06, Dave Taht wrote:
63% F bloat grade for
http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/isp=
/r3895-Orange%20Broadband

I was disappointed to see the numbers for free, but wish I had insight
into up vs down for their bloat scores.

http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/isp/r281=
6-Free%20France

but... so wonderful to sit on a vantage point across the world! Way to
go justin!
Hi Dave,

I'd like to urge caution about using 'whole ISP' bufferbloat figures.=C2=A0 In the UK there are quite a few aspect= s that are quite simply out of an ISP's control.=C2=A0 If I wer= e an ISP I'd get rather annoyed by the 'ISP ranked by speed results' sites out there, adding bufferbloat, certainly without up/down split out is adding insult to injury.=C2=A0 This = is going to be a long post so feel free to skip/delete :-)

In the UK for example the delivery technologies are cable (1 supplier, Virgin Media), adsl (many suppliers), vdsl (1 supplier, BT)=C2=A0 Virgin have most control over CPE kit.=C2=A0 = ADSL is a free for all.=C2=A0 VDSL2 was down to 2 modems (Huawei & EC= I) but this is expanding outward toward free for all status.

ADSL cpe is mostly 1 box combined modem/router often supplied by ISP.=C2=A0 VDSL is mostly so far a 2 box solution wit= h 100mbit ethernet twixt modem/router.=C2=A0 Heading more towards 1 box solution (modem/router/wifi)

In cabled areas Virgin control network.=C2=A0 Each region/cabinet has own level of contention/congestion.=C2=A0 Wher= e not cabled area they use adsl solution provided by BT.

ADSL on exchange by exchange basis may have BT only presence or 'a.n. other suppliers' presence, known as LLU= eg Talk Talk, Sky etc.=C2=A0 If supplier has no local presence then offers service via BT kit.

VDSL at present is BT Openreach only kit in near-to-home cabinets.=C2=A0 BTO trunk all data back to the exchange and then = (I assume) it's split out across the various ISP backhaul vlans.=

Backhaul links between exchanges to ISP POPs may be provisioned by own supplier (eg Sky, TalkTalk) or BT, all at differing bandwidths etc.

Some ISPs are much better at monitoring lines, latency, usage etc both CPE and backhaul.=C2=A0 A&A are excellent at doing this, not only do they have the tools, they actually use them!=C2=A0 They frequently identify latency increases (and in extremis packet drops) on backhaul links from their suppliers (mostly BT)

A&A are a good example here: A&A are the ISP but they use BT backhaul and BT Adsl kit to supply service all over the country.=C2=A0 They monitor links and provision (ie purchase) bandwidth from BT with the aim of not being the bottleneck for their customers.=C2=A0 A.N.Other ISP may provide service in exact= ly the same way, using the same BT kit but not purchase sufficient bandwidth.=C2=A0 For the sake of completeness, A&A in 'TalkTalk' enabled exchanges can also use 'TalkTal= k' backhaul

Aside from any ISP backhaul issues or not, 'speed' is fundamentally limited by 'the last mile' of copper, chang= ing ISP doesn't change that last mile unless changing technologie= s (ADSL->Cable->VDSL)=C2=A0 There's a fundamental lack of understanding in this country as to how 'broadband' actua= lly works and I get dismayed by the many conversations I hear that go something like "You should use ISP A, they're great, = ISP B are crap.=C2=A0 Oh but I use ISP B and they're great and ISP = A are crap".=C2=A0 This is aside from 'what do you mean by cra= p?', slow all the time?, slow when up/downloading? (ahh, bufferbloat!)=C2= =A0 (note to self:=C2=A0 You really should finish your blog post on this topic Kevin!

BT for all their faults, do run rate limiters on the 'downlink' side so as to not (hopefully) overfill the pip= e from ISP to customer (A&A have a means whereby they rate limit before BT if desired) so I'd like to think that 'downlink' bufferbloat should be reasonably controlled in= this country.=C2=A0 Where it all turns to rat shit is on the uplink, many, many different types of CPE, little under ISP control/specification (3rd party adsl router/modems available freely in stores)=C2=A0 Add routers running 3rd party firmware to the mix (OpenWrt, Tomato, Merlin's AsusWrt)

I guess I'm concerned that another means of beating ISPs is being developed where the signal to noise ratio is actually very low and sensible interpretation needs to be applied.=C2=A0 I= f going anywhere near this I think showing up & down bloat ratings mandatory.

In the interests of full disclosure I'm not actually an A&A customer (though I was a few years ago)=C2=A0 They're= an excellent ISP with superb customer service and clue.=C2=A0 They a= re probably more expensive than I wished to pay for...customer service and clue isn't cheap.=C2=A0 Whilst my current supplie= r (Sky...VDSL2 so actually BTO) is good and so far reasonably reliable I *instantly* lose the will to live and want to slash my wrists when speaking to their customer service.=C2=A0 I do kee= p looking at A&A muttering 'native IPv6, unfiltered, customer service with clue' though.=C2=A0 Breaking away from = the 'triple play' service from Sky with the associated discou= nts and benefits is going to be hard.=C2=A0 Clue isn't cheap.

I've rambled enough.=C2=A0 There's some fun to be had rea= ding Adrian's battles with his favourite telco, example here: http://www.revk.uk/2015/02/congestion-case-study.html




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