* Re: [Bloat] Skype
@ 2012-11-19 10:27 Ingemar Johansson S
2012-11-19 10:36 ` Dave Taht
2012-11-19 13:25 ` Michael Welzl
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Ingemar Johansson S @ 2012-11-19 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
Hi
Been a year or so since I read about the inner secrets of Skype so this may be old..
I would suspect that your Skype session runs over TCP (via a Relay). This may happen e.g when a firewall blocks UDP.
TCP (possibly in combination with a lossy WiFi connection) is what creates the high latencies.
/Ingemar
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:57:53 +0100
From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
Subject: [Bloat] Skype
Message-ID: <647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi,
I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers?
Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:09:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Alex Burr <ajb44.geo@yahoo.com>
To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype
Message-ID:
<1353254943.93761.YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds - but I think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad connection. I don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype client, but I suspect that they take the view that delayed audio is better than incomprehensible audio - I think I have even heard it actually repeating the last bit of audio before a glitch, to give you a better chance to understand the next bit, and presumably catching up when the opportunity arises.
So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a de-bloated path, but one with known packet loss.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
> Cc:
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM
> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
>
> Hi,
>
> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation
> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of
> multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a
> hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't
> yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my
> office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
>
> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path
> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers?
>
> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the
> fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
End of Bloat Digest, Vol 23, Issue 10
*************************************
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Skype
2012-11-19 10:27 [Bloat] Skype Ingemar Johansson S
@ 2012-11-19 10:36 ` Dave Taht
2012-11-19 13:25 ` Michael Welzl
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Dave Taht @ 2012-11-19 10:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ingemar Johansson S; +Cc: bloat
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Ingemar Johansson S
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Been a year or so since I read about the inner secrets of Skype so this may be old..
> I would suspect that your Skype session runs over TCP (via a Relay). This may happen e.g when a firewall blocks UDP.
> TCP (possibly in combination with a lossy WiFi connection) is what creates the high latencies.
I recently tried to use both skype and google voice on a concall to
the US during the recent strike and riots in barcelona. Power and
regular internet were down, so I hacked my way into a local mesh node
with a spare directional antenna to make the call.
The connection was quite lousy,
Skype was unusable. Google voice sort of worked, but exhibited classic
symptoms of overbuffering and wifi retries, sometimes playing back
seconds of audio at a very high rate, and otherwise dropping out
frequently.
I got packet traces of the google voice call, but regrettably cannot
share them due to the contents of the call. They are "interesting",
and if I get a chance I'll write up what I learned.
It did inspire me harder, to try and find a rtp based test tool
(anyone?), so that the next time I or someone else is in a situation
like that, a good analysis can be made.
>
> /Ingemar
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:57:53 +0100
> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
> Message-ID: <647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi,
>
> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
>
> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers?
>
> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:09:03 -0800 (PST)
> From: Alex Burr <ajb44.geo@yahoo.com>
> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype
> Message-ID:
> <1353254943.93761.YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds - but I think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad connection. I don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype client, but I suspect that they take the view that delayed audio is better than incomprehensible audio - I think I have even heard it actually repeating the last bit of audio before a glitch, to give you a better chance to understand the next bit, and presumably catching up when the opportunity arises.
>
> So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a de-bloated path, but one with known packet loss.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
>> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM
>> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation
>> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of
>> multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a
>> hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't
>> yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my
>> office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
>>
>> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path
>> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers?
>>
>> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
>> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the
>> fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Michael
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
> End of Bloat Digest, Vol 23, Issue 10
> *************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
--
Dave Täht
Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Skype
2012-11-19 10:27 [Bloat] Skype Ingemar Johansson S
2012-11-19 10:36 ` Dave Taht
@ 2012-11-19 13:25 ` Michael Welzl
2012-11-19 18:23 ` Matt Mathis
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Michael Welzl @ 2012-11-19 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
Ohh... rats, I didn't check that. Quite possible.
Cheers,
Michael
On Nov 19, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Ingemar Johansson S wrote:
> Hi
>
> Been a year or so since I read about the inner secrets of Skype so
> this may be old..
> I would suspect that your Skype session runs over TCP (via a Relay).
> This may happen e.g when a firewall blocks UDP.
> TCP (possibly in combination with a lossy WiFi connection) is what
> creates the high latencies.
>
> /Ingemar
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:57:53 +0100
> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
> Message-ID: <647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi,
>
> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long
> conversation involving video, can create massive audio delays (in
> the order of multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a
> conversation from a hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where,
> apologies, I haven't yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access
> point), and from my office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
>
> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the
> path (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its
> internal buffers?
>
> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over
> a verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs,
> the fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:09:03 -0800 (PST)
> From: Alex Burr <ajb44.geo@yahoo.com>
> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype
> Message-ID:
> <1353254943.93761.YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds -
> but I think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad
> connection. I don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype
> client, but I suspect that they take the view that delayed audio is
> better than incomprehensible audio - I think I have even heard it
> actually repeating the last bit of audio before a glitch, to give
> you a better chance to understand the next bit, and presumably
> catching up when the opportunity arises.
>
> So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a de-
> bloated path, but one with known packet loss.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
>> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM
>> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long
>> conversation
>> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of
>> multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a
>> hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't
>> yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my
>> office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
>>
>> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the
>> path
>> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal
>> buffers?
>>
>> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
>> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the
>> fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Michael
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
> End of Bloat Digest, Vol 23, Issue 10
> *************************************
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Skype
2012-11-19 13:25 ` Michael Welzl
@ 2012-11-19 18:23 ` Matt Mathis
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Matt Mathis @ 2012-11-19 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael Welzl; +Cc: bloat
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5233 bytes --]
BTW Be aware that skipe tries multiple strategies to get connectivity.
Skype in one environment may be using a totally different protocol (with
different dynamics) than another.
(Either TCP or UDP, with lots of middle box traversal options: STUN, etc)
Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay
Privacy matters! We know from recent events that people are using our
services to speak in defiance of unjust governments. We treat privacy and
security as matters of life and death, because for some users, they are.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> Ohh... rats, I didn't check that. Quite possible.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Ingemar Johansson S wrote:
>
> Hi
>>
>> Been a year or so since I read about the inner secrets of Skype so this
>> may be old..
>> I would suspect that your Skype session runs over TCP (via a Relay). This
>> may happen e.g when a firewall blocks UDP.
>> TCP (possibly in combination with a lossy WiFi connection) is what
>> creates the high latencies.
>>
>> /Ingemar
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:57:53 +0100
>> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
>> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
>> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
>> Message-ID: <647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-**74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no<647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no>
>> >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation
>> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of multiple
>> seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a hotel room in
>> the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into
>> de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my office in Oslo to
>> someone else's office in the US.
>>
>> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path
>> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers?
>>
>> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
>> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the fault
>> is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:09:03 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Alex Burr <ajb44.geo@yahoo.com>
>> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
>> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype
>> Message-ID:
>> <1353254943.93761.**YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.**ne1.yahoo.com<1353254943.93761.YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
>> >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds - but I
>> think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad connection. I
>> don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype client, but I
>> suspect that they take the view that delayed audio is better than
>> incomprehensible audio - I think I have even heard it actually repeating
>> the last bit of audio before a glitch, to give you a better chance to
>> understand the next bit, and presumably catching up when the opportunity
>> arises.
>>
>> So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a
>> de-bloated path, but one with known packet loss.
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
>>> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM
>>> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation
>>> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of
>>> multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a
>>> hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't
>>> yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my
>>> office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path
>>> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal
>>> buffers?
>>>
>>> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
>>> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the
>>> fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat<https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat<https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat>
>>
>>
>> End of Bloat Digest, Vol 23, Issue 10
>> ***************************************
>>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat<https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6935 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Skype
2012-11-18 14:57 Michael Welzl
@ 2012-11-18 16:09 ` Alex Burr
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Alex Burr @ 2012-11-18 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds - but I think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad connection. I don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype client, but I suspect that they take the view that delayed audio is better than incomprehensible audio - I think I have even heard it actually repeating the last bit of audio before a glitch, to give you a better chance to understand the next bit, and presumably catching up when the opportunity arises.
So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a de-bloated path, but one with known packet loss.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
> To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
> Cc:
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM
> Subject: [Bloat] Skype
>
> Hi,
>
> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation involving
> video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of multiple seconds). This
> has happened to me in a conversation from a hotel room in the US to my home in
> Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into de-bloating my modem and
> access point), and from my office in Oslo to someone else's office in the
> US.
>
> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path
> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers?
>
> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a verifiably
> de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the fault is with the
> equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* [Bloat] Skype
@ 2012-11-18 14:57 Michael Welzl
2012-11-18 16:09 ` Alex Burr
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Michael Welzl @ 2012-11-18 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
Hi,
I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation
involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of
multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a
hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't
yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my
office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.
I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path
(including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal
buffers?
Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the
fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).
Cheers,
Michael
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-11-19 18:23 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2012-11-19 10:27 [Bloat] Skype Ingemar Johansson S
2012-11-19 10:36 ` Dave Taht
2012-11-19 13:25 ` Michael Welzl
2012-11-19 18:23 ` Matt Mathis
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2012-11-18 14:57 Michael Welzl
2012-11-18 16:09 ` Alex Burr
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