From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wi0-f175.google.com (mail-wi0-f175.google.com [209.85.212.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9213E21F150 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id hn14so178487wib.10 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:23:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=IdS6rXpu4metbHtdniTKSI/HlBlzxVYBtml9RSBcxMA=; b=LLP0+6ing7y5lvK9rNzMoNwn6VuShz4EUl6Ce+RtEviQJ4WLACMV04/G20lmn3G5Fs vpNFaPwi+twvhVJaHBntobMlzpJYLj6fakIt9jQY/P+JQlmGf4qvcHV0Zc0lieYUCA0Y 3p29zm5U8jJdik2KdI2fse5jwKnmPEFtCYhqmYEBYwLDkQqEuruP6bltIWT6WaTDYWlD H92enW8oyMQiFecmxoddUVUorCLXeHeLEOAmyZKfmNuhB/yQYcgK+mfMHTolfI8cuAr1 KfqeDWuw/Y2/t1dFoxgeUpPrxvYKIjpncDaQbrgvoiqmYNtuFWgsuftj+Fbv0+8c1gfD w4Eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=IdS6rXpu4metbHtdniTKSI/HlBlzxVYBtml9RSBcxMA=; b=hNdb8M511gm9lyQ+9DeOPD50oon//cYfxoDVNkAj8MsZyIdF12l6NxDJ+UeQbsbCnG qCQldadCuFMKUhofIS7oYQFDHdbV+jH76vW+7215RToIRMyfKy+6gZONT4rbxV0Ots3/ Z5AadSkgjDiceGlPRin9Lb5lU5me/+6f27nGhsSGZdluKMUxFTpgJ67JPwi/0YPFjf/E 9onIJvhBumG/G5hyEJOHbYIH4CvXJJxq+OAqdMEDQr8jFpEuRgY0UoBURCnB3hONRpZG 2+GmEObb+oRte0cnPnCqDvNPkbMDwSD1iazxmH8dhSyp2HqF4vyn5CIcSKkl99DUZsEu mpyg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.140.29 with SMTP id d29mr3911384wej.23.1353349406408; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.9.71 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:23:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1AF294D3-4279-4707-B699-EE4C512264B0@ifi.uio.no> References: <81564C0D7D4D2A4B9A86C8C7404A13DA04B32E@ESESSMB205.ericsson.se> <1AF294D3-4279-4707-B699-EE4C512264B0@ifi.uio.no> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:23:26 -0800 Message-ID: From: Matt Mathis To: Michael Welzl Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502b653a041e004cedd36b6 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkGeZSH4Kv2lOa9HZhe+zip1WEMe5Yemzmg70oxRZrIoq7oNul+UFSiKJfIiwx8h5nTGgLOy3de+CrlPWyZQVIL8r/e0LNAsHE1yaQigDFNw+M8TnabSZcE/BKahK0NnEmyBOBhrzCQ4ctqS4wbSC/91rVa6QNZ4lTC6Uq6v31CG7QxtgZ/mOtrrm8dzgimzOJozll5ZPRI/D44JMLmrYXK9vbwwg== Cc: bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:23:29 -0000 --00504502b653a041e004cedd36b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 BTW Be aware that skipe tries multiple strategies to get connectivity. Skype in one environment may be using a totally different protocol (with different dynamics) than another. (Either TCP or UDP, with lots of middle box traversal options: STUN, etc) Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay Privacy matters! We know from recent events that people are using our services to speak in defiance of unjust governments. We treat privacy and security as matters of life and death, because for some users, they are. On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Michael Welzl wrote: > Ohh... rats, I didn't check that. Quite possible. > > Cheers, > Michael > > > > On Nov 19, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Ingemar Johansson S wrote: > > Hi >> >> Been a year or so since I read about the inner secrets of Skype so this >> may be old.. >> I would suspect that your Skype session runs over TCP (via a Relay). This >> may happen e.g when a firewall blocks UDP. >> TCP (possibly in combination with a lossy WiFi connection) is what >> creates the high latencies. >> >> /Ingemar >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:57:53 +0100 >> From: Michael Welzl >> To: bloat >> Subject: [Bloat] Skype >> Message-ID: <647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-**74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no<647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-74141C84C3CB@ifi.uio.no> >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >> Hi, >> >> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation >> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of multiple >> seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a hotel room in >> the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into >> de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my office in Oslo to >> someone else's office in the US. >> >> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path >> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers? >> >> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a >> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the fault >> is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa). >> >> Cheers, >> Michael >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:09:03 -0800 (PST) >> From: Alex Burr >> To: bloat >> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype >> Message-ID: >> <1353254943.93761.**YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.**ne1.yahoo.com<1353254943.93761.YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds - but I >> think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad connection. I >> don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype client, but I >> suspect that they take the view that delayed audio is better than >> incomprehensible audio - I think I have even heard it actually repeating >> the last bit of audio before a glitch, to give you a better chance to >> understand the next bit, and presumably catching up when the opportunity >> arises. >> >> So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a >> de-bloated path, but one with known packet loss. >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: Michael Welzl >>> To: bloat >>> Cc: >>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM >>> Subject: [Bloat] Skype >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation >>> involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of >>> multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a >>> hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't >>> yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my >>> office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US. >>> >>> I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path >>> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal >>> buffers? >>> >>> Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a >>> verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the >>> fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Michael >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat >> >> >> End of Bloat Digest, Vol 23, Issue 10 >> *************************************** >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat > --00504502b653a041e004cedd36b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
B= TW =A0Be aware that skipe tries=A0multiple=A0strategies to get connectivity= . =A0 Skype in one environment may be using a totally different protocol (w= ith different dynamics) than another.=A0

(Either=A0TCP or UDP, with lots of=A0middle box=A0traversal = options: STUN, etc)

Thanks,
--MM-= -
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =A0- Alan Kay
<= br>Privacy matters! =A0We know from recent events that people are using our= services to speak in defiance of unjust governments. =A0 We treat privacy = and security as matters of life and death, because for some users, they are= .


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Michael= Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
Ohh... rats, I didn't check that. Quite possible.

Cheers,
Michael



On Nov 19, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Ingemar Johansson S wrote:

Hi

Been a year or so since I read about the inner secrets of Skype so this may= be old..
I would suspect that your Skype session runs over TCP (via a Relay). This m= ay happen e.g when a firewall blocks UDP.
TCP (possibly in combination with a lossy WiFi connection) is what creates = the high latencies.

/Ingemar
------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:57:53 +0100
From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
Subject: [Bloat] Skype
Message-ID: <647D57F5-24CE-4006-AD2A-74141C84C3CB@ifi.u= io.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII; format=3Dflowed; delsp=3Dyes<= br>
Hi,

I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation invo= lving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of multiple seco= nds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a hotel room in the US= to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into de-blo= ating my modem and access point), and from my office in Oslo to someone els= e's office in the US.

I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path = (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers= ?

Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a verif= iably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the fault is wit= h the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).

Cheers,
Michael



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:09:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Alex Burr <ajb44.geo@yahoo.com>
To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] Skype
Message-ID:
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <1353254943.93761.YahooMailN= eo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

I have noticed delays - although I don't think multiple seconds - but I= think that it may be skype trying to make the best of a bad connection. I = don't have any knowledge of the internals of the skype client, but I su= spect that they take the view that delayed audio is better than incomprehen= sible audio - I think I have even heard it actually repeating the last bit = of audio before a glitch, to give you a better chance to understand the nex= t bit, and presumably catching up when the opportunity arises.

So, an experiment to rule out skype might need to use not just a de-bloated= path, but one with known packet loss.


Alex



----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
To: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.NET>
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:57 PM
Subject: [Bloat] Skype

Hi,

I have repeatedly noticed that Skype sometimes, in a long conversation
involving video, can create massive audio delays (in the order of
multiple seconds). This has happened to me in a conversation from a
hotel room in the US to my home in Oslo (where, apologies, I haven't yet looked into de-bloating my modem and access point), and from my
office in Oslo to someone else's office in the US.

I'm wondering: was that always due to bloated equipment along the path<= br> (including the end hosts), or does Skype poorly handle its internal buffers= ?

Any experiences? I suppose the way to find out is to run Skype over a
verifiably de-bloated path. If, then, the problem never occurs, the
fault is with the equipment and not with Skype (and vice versa).

Cheers,
Michael

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
= https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
= https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


End of Bloat Digest, Vol 23, Issue 10
*************************************

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
= https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

--00504502b653a041e004cedd36b6--