From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C38D3B29D for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 12:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id d190so54544iof.3 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:49:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0L8jhYMeTP8oZ0Mva0Diu8pFZjH2lRkwkS5EiEDB168=; b=KmVSyoUUUe+k3fsdApFP1Df7vMctEqoPHGl3/zjWym+S0XbTrNqppU+nkbEnBce04O kB6A5dXA4/DJH1IlUT27A70/f6dLfavxRR6A1egv36GdCiAFqp4iEha5DXIIb1RVgPY5 9+TaK3q5mBuGbq+cqLL7/FplLBGjTjkMvisH3GmGnXz9bozHbQ35Pdxpk9yAaJbJRg8z sLxRrnDll/dTrsw/9DgumrZqNaTFLWacD62LTh5TSkq4hmWyxEe+4RwX9toQUEdWxU/x M0hxnC264MGT3n0xHL/ooSVx4NUvkkFiEupdX+sFX3tAJ23q0sUAJOXaJqKddynZ5RPr e83A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0L8jhYMeTP8oZ0Mva0Diu8pFZjH2lRkwkS5EiEDB168=; b=JiITXfuHxLVGSXQb6+CdDC5+coZ2ye5ZUMqwJHfpbwuGxEOw6uC1sY/O4l01Lcooyb Cc3BGhk7gZBg8pUOQpCiLTcF/jC+xR4X42ykGHYMzNYX+887pruhExCxOcijTuXVmMMf ivlccIilWRpcsEhgN7er1xIq9tCVfMz56jzbsaHQeZ3gHyEORw8xGqT89wNqhzXWYFy5 ZJvE6bFV/rDP1KbUpkPVLPLCP8PB7hzqNeCf2BnWmVBl67CsPDZhCd2LzlwuS5nhU1kX dzxe7qV+SRrDs3xBIcXwXwbxhirYLZBcg63CwtcsMxCcS2eKc/GmDzidibEtymV1Xf92 +NTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530f8HFHJhEkTrsRPSewBdOOr5BUM1e2MDKdxeIDTnOFRwXRp5xu KFwTJv9758gfzIhCEgljaZ3Phy/srX4DesXUncP2zg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkOwS7yQZ3vtqDt1z8q83PxvsjYW7lPdIEjckvWShtS21amVBfEgX8fDBvmUSxSTQ6ZSXvCTNSZIYt2hbD8vQ= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c506:: with SMTP id s6mr25370744jam.104.1599583744553; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:49:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87k0x6os8t.fsf@toke.dk> <1916fe37-04f5-137b-0ec5-a82fa9c3898e@indexexchange.com> <727bcf44-e3b5-f6ff-3063-e8b080dfb6e1@rogers.com> In-Reply-To: From: Matt Mathis Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 09:48:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Collier-Brown Cc: Ken Rice , Dave Taht , Anthony Minessale II , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e251ff05aed01c26" Subject: Re: [Bloat] How about a topical LWN article on demonstrating the real-world goodness of CAKE? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 16:49:05 -0000 --000000000000e251ff05aed01c26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Consider starting from the incorrect default premise in many households: if you want to get something done, yell at the teenagers to stop streaming. Make the point that many people fail to recognize that "manual traffic management" is really a workaround for busted network devices. It would be cool if you had an easily reproduced manual example, such as poor interactive response on one device while running a speed test on another device. To be simplistic, you might just talk about cake vs (bloated) drop tail. To be thorough, you also need to make the case that cake is better than other AQMs. This feels like too much for LWN, but silence on other solutions might trigger skeptics. I think your main audience is the extended WRT community - the people who you want to bake this into future products. Think about what side issues might matter to them (no manual config?). Although gamers also care, they are an easy sell. Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay We must not tolerate intolerance; however our response must be carefully measured: too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control; too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval. On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 8:43 AM Dave Taht wrote: > Dear David: > > I think freeswitch still has a public sip echo server which might be a > better test than skype? I tend to think there is a lot of bloat on > the endpoints nowadays because it "helps" on not having to deal with > jitter > that the bloat on the rest of the internet induces. But 1sec you got > on skype in your test below is NUTS. I hacked a bit on BBB earlier > this year to get their number down to sanity. > > I find endless videoconferencing nowadays to be really tiring and > frustrating. Am I alone in this? I have to go outside and scream after > two hours. Log off entirely after 4. > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 10:20 AM David Collier-Brown > wrote: > > > > Just FYI, I did two tests today, in my Copious Spare Time > > > > a DSLReports speed test using an IQrouter, and > > a Skype "tap" test, with and without the de-bloated router > > > > The router did exactly what I expected: it vaporized the bloat-induced > delay provided by Rogers. > > > > My previous bloat-induced lag was between 700 and 900 milliseconds unde= r > load, and an unimpressive 240 milliseconds when idle. With a de-bloated > router, lag was 40 milliseconds maximum, whether idle or loaded, and abou= t > 30 millisecond minimum, or a 3500 km round-trip, appropriate for the > distances to the measurements points. By comparison, Rodger-Dogers was > giving me lag times more appropriate for a test to Ankara, Turkey. > > > > The tap test was interesting, but less helpful. I connected to > 1-909-390-0003 <(909)%20390-0003>, which is an instant-echo server, used > to test voice telephones. If you connect to it and say something, it will > echo it back to you. If you tap on your microphone, it's fairly easy to g= et > an idea of how much delay there is. > > > > Alas, with and without bufferbloat mitigation, it took about a second > echo back the tap, so it's not the kind of instantly-obvious success test > I'm searching for, to demonstrate the goodness of CAKE to my grandmother > (;-)) > > > > --dave > > > > -- > > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > > davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain > > > > -- > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > > dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > <(831)%20435-0729> > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --000000000000e251ff05aed01c26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Consider starting from the incorrect default premise in ma= ny households:=C2=A0 if you want to get something done, yell at the teenage= rs to stop streaming.=C2=A0 Make the point that many people fail to recogni= ze that "manual traffic management" is really a workaround for bu= sted network devices.=C2=A0 It would be cool if you had an easily reproduce= d manual example, such as poor interactive response=C2=A0on one device whil= e running a speed test on another device.

To be simplist= ic, you might just talk about cake vs (bloated) drop tail.=C2=A0 To be thor= ough, you also need to make the case that cake is better than other AQMs.= =C2=A0 This feels like too much for LWN, but silence on other solutions mig= ht trigger skeptics.

I think your main audience is= the extended WRT community - the people who you want to bake this into fut= ure products.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Think about what side issues might matter to them= (no manual config?).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Although gamers also care, they are an e= asy sell.

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to= predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay

We must not to= lerate intolerance;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0howeve= r our response must be carefully measured:=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical and risks spir= aling out of control;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 t= oo weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 8:43 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear David:

I think freeswitch still has a public sip echo server which might be a
better test than skype?=C2=A0 I tend to think there is a lot of bloat on the endpoints nowadays because it "helps" on not having to deal w= ith
jitter
that the bloat on the rest of the internet induces. But 1sec you got
on skype in your test below is NUTS. I hacked a bit on BBB earlier
this year to get their number down to sanity.

I find endless videoconferencing nowadays to be really tiring and
frustrating. Am I alone in this? I have to go outside and scream after
two hours. Log off entirely after 4.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 10:20 AM David Collier-Brown <davecb.42@gmail.com> wrote: >
> Just FYI, I did two tests today, in my Copious Spare Time
>
> a DSLReports speed test using an IQrouter, and
> a Skype "tap" test, with and without the de-bloated router >
> The router did exactly what I expected: it vaporized the bloat-induced= delay provided by Rogers.
>
> My previous bloat-induced lag was between 700 and 900 milliseconds und= er load, and an unimpressive 240 milliseconds when idle.=C2=A0 With a de-bl= oated router, lag was 40 milliseconds maximum, whether idle or loaded, and = about 30 millisecond minimum, or a 3500 km round-trip, appropriate for the = distances to the measurements points. By comparison, Rodger-Dogers was givi= ng me lag times more appropriate for a test to Ankara, Turkey.
>
> The tap test was interesting, but less helpful. I connected to 1-909-39= 0-0003, which is an instant-echo server, used to test voice telephones.= If you connect to it and say something, it will echo it back to you. If yo= u tap on your microphone, it's fairly easy to get an idea of how much d= elay there is.
>
> Alas, with and without bufferbloat mitigation, it took about a second = echo back the tap, so it's not the kind of instantly-obvious success te= st I'm searching for, to demonstrate the goodness of CAKE to my grandmo= ther (;-))
>
> --dave
>
> --
> David Collier-Brown,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Always do righ= t. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
> davecb@spamcop= .net=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Mark Twain



--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public=
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman

dave@taht.net <Da= ve T=C3=A4ht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
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