From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 222313B2A4 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id z2so14929251wrl.5 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2021 22:36:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1dCifkWhLmmf4ilsyQpgtkBwnRzMkOmbZhXO1EqG75U=; b=ZUssSh/furxo1nERSNvLWlM/hOGD1+wJpLfs5uaMlLlmB3mLvOr+i4ny5rN6xPM/Ea 4P+PeFZIgweRUregZu5K3yeHNWKYH9X0MqR/hCtvkFAdJx9dFejPfMTPVzel3whETipF cE9Jt+7vOeSV1b7DSzMA904Sh3RUx27k0L2ExnnJJ31a2PPKBWTRFLRXcqIkPGvVgQjR sq1R3r73U0ZSfVYfaJc3nwSOpOupCsg2z3ampVb9IcuVQfzqtOE9yG01YhCAj+YB79pB wQEslfnxGMY7kaAkOBnbTGN/+iR5lEfks7jQ0TNY7rPqyLd5SDoVy6BHuMgMDG3YtsR3 E+BQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1dCifkWhLmmf4ilsyQpgtkBwnRzMkOmbZhXO1EqG75U=; b=dB5JRDEfJbsQaeJsG0QX53wiaOC7BK7I0WVx+KN+7cd9xbEcmdFZrWg8qH+iyTFD7F MnQKkg8pjGQZIZGmuEjdWB3p8PCV6bR2g+1jpZxtlN4knEJ6tmzQzV1/MnEUA5g9la5b L8zpmHI09IWqwYDr7Ty0220VE99Ndud3tWqep6/QMjLKiwogjRM8DR3hh0zWi//jCLaB +kNn4J5DCx6ibA0OdSPeC5YaXVfdBATFgXvFNIBrvm801UjS4uMFNSusi3VJzElZceXl cyEb6HTKrIfUiLfYxArcJW7tL2akT6DM8WUrR4lw6dDZmBLhjzTwN8paSaMLJ9p6hgmo X0BA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jzgXZXNc7tDZaAZcm4K0Ct9a8jQC32lwi682fkC+Z6wrd9cnb cKDuTPhcQFFdmrGtMvw/sLGOPiS/1iwWg8hDFh15hrBamRPsqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVz+gtaMmJBSMmpKeFYU4TGYwzyH/57LRQ6sDpCVZO3JP+6Jq4pHF6L8imQ3mIjTwD8e2yFfCuUnlp/YcU+2E= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f351:: with SMTP id e17mr31543791wrp.416.1617082583021; Mon, 29 Mar 2021 22:36:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <44899809-1b3b-ecea-e0fa-4281111f8f1a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <44899809-1b3b-ecea-e0fa-4281111f8f1a@gmail.com> From: Matt Mathis Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 22:36:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ef413305beba608e" Subject: Re: [Bloat] fcc input X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 05:36:24 -0000 --000000000000ef413305beba608e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I encourage you to collectively think about a different strategy for framing the problem. Rather than talk about BB, and then forever looping back and try to explain why it is important to non-network folks, develop a tool (or a skin for an existing tool) that estimates the suitability of a link to carry video conferencing and gamer traffic, using the language from those communities (e.g. "lag"). No explanation is needed to tell a gamer why lag is bad. No explanation is needed to tell a musician why lag is bad for a distributed ensemble. Very little explanation is needed to tell a VC user why lag is bad, since these days everybody has experienced it. Keep the up front the language at the application layer, but down inside reveal that the largest culprit is often excess network queueing delay under load, AKA buffer bloat. Although a well framed tool could have high impact, you would get even more bang for your buck to have a semi-standard jitter metric that could be grafted into any real time application. The goal would be to connect the observed (and measured) application lag to the underlying network jitter, queueing delay and bufferbloat. Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay We must not tolerate intolerance; however our response must be carefully measured: too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control; too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval. On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 1:54 AM Jan Ceuleers wrote: > On 26/03/2021 20:09, Dave Taht wrote: > > I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via > > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator > > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" into "unruly > > animals as packets". > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1657s > > > > But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neither. > > Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos, > > but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I > > ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps > > we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated. > > I have often admired Randall Munroe's ability to grasp and satirise > sometimes quite complex concepts. Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to > draw a bufferbloat-inspired cartoon? He publishes his work at xkcd.com > under a Creative Commons license. > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --000000000000ef413305beba608e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=C2=A0 encourage you to collectively think about a differ= ent strategy for framing the problem.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rather than talk about B= B, and then forever looping back and try to explain why it is important to = non-network=C2=A0folks, develop=C2=A0a tool (or a skin for an existing tool= )=C2=A0 that estimates the suitability=C2=A0of a link to carry video confer= encing=C2=A0 and gamer traffic, using the language=C2=A0from those=C2=A0com= munities (e.g. "lag").

No explanation is neede= d to tell a gamer why lag is bad.
No explanation is needed to tel= l=C2=A0a=C2=A0musician why lag is bad for a distributed ensemble.
Very little explanation is needed to tell a VC user why lag is bad, since= =C2=A0these days everybody has experienced it.

Kee= p the up front the language at the application layer, but down inside revea= l that the largest culprit=C2=A0is often=C2=A0excess network queueing=C2=A0= delay under load, AKA buffer bloat.

Although a= well framed tool could have high impact, you would get even more bang for = your buck to have a semi-standard jitter metric that could be grafted into = any real time application.=C2=A0 The goal would be to connect the observed = (and measured) application lag to the underlying network jitter, queueing d= elay and bufferbloat.

Thanks,
--MM--
The b= est way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay

We m= ust not tolerate intolerance;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0however our response must be carefully measured:=C2=A0
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical and= risks spiraling out of control;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 1:54 AM = Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gma= il.com> wrote:
On 26/03/2021 20:09, Dave Taht wrote:
> I have often thought hard about trying to explain things better via > animations, and on more than one occasion tried to find an animator > who could turn this old 8m talk from "people as packets" int= o "unruly
> animals as packets".
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DRb= -UnHDw02o&t=3D1657s
>
> But that requires both money and time, and I've usually had neithe= r.
> Grant money would be nice for a whole string of educational videos, > but not being part of the MICA complex has made that difficult. If I > ever get caught up on bills, and some other pressing problems, perhaps=
> we could do a kickstarter campaign to get some things animated.

I have often admired Randall Munroe's ability to grasp and satirise
sometimes quite complex concepts. Perhaps he could be prevailed upon to
draw a bufferbloat-inspired cartoon? He publishes his work at xkcd.com
under a Creative Commons license.
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Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
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