From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3416F3B2A4 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 09:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id n12so7218310lfe.1 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 06:59:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7U7qVfqoQiLYSkXWO2ZlXlHo+6+XSKQmMdB/7lyMBFA=; b=VG2aBCqJxXLnfG6kxk/U8svpaeY+V9svGqASqR6qrD5qzHxQJQJ42QKD7fNSUQh6G0 BunH+LOm2r3EmN9qDgkxEGnjoxKB4IaRMZi3WdBHSBPSZD14x0iPRszDgGeK/HWIg9PX zz1alq0ChSiEJePLvZDMXq1mxOOxqRx2jjl1s= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7U7qVfqoQiLYSkXWO2ZlXlHo+6+XSKQmMdB/7lyMBFA=; b=pRacLEn/ikozL3hP4vn+5JSDinAP4PmzIgJ+F/1CA7prtPv3l+FXhFK21pvtRYS9l8 7JNyxWbogGuz1Q/jbhxbNx1C0PTurTVge8bw+Dn6+TcibQ2TywsehCepXGH/x7yqTlnw tW/AZ0u4Muex7m+EIkWpn9OU9D+DCGZRiKjlGmUQiQPQqUYTY1x3j54OKvqIDqb7peSE XlLQ3yEoZTRZl8+XQfygmR/bkrb12RC0ZuWjxBrCFJ/Zwz2BThWbSlotvTcfrWVp3Ylm DUQK1+aZZ/IjLtcaxrMivanKEeMPF1YkcTLbZbNIdWOuuy+eWJp3DQpqsqvj8+qWBskn COBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GwJdSlwW39hOKIt27exArkLxbxYLiMKjlkQLoEZtJUrg3s0A5 u2L0MhJiJkEZ2QpMjlnnrVZ1bUyHGCVTBWrQ+6dZEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhqsfGTisRmsWAWrbrn+XVKkEb+aRuZuG38ZmfPNKaO+FeJHCtM2qumFaDYKx3EEx9JCM0m9LPFtN7f6+WS/Q= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c797:: with SMTP id x145mr17707414lff.533.1638543542036; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 06:59:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5BBAA5F8-3C4B-4022-8D80-D87B6CAAB8EA@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <5BBAA5F8-3C4B-4022-8D80-D87B6CAAB8EA@gmx.de> From: Luca Muscariello Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 15:58:50 +0100 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c61c8905d23f25f9" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 14:59:04 -0000 --000000000000c61c8905d23f25f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Dave, > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello > wrote: > >> > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > >> > >> > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-a= a04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > Nice. > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the same > time. > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these speeds. > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to determine > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range o= f > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly an= d > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against > jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequ= al > jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no= ? > (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant > problem for internet game-play). > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the gamer. > > > We had them participating on this list at some point.... > > > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht wrote: > >>> > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor NOT > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with someones > >>> with accounts? > >>> > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > >>> > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bloat mailing list > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > -- > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > --000000000000c61c8905d23f25f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moel= ler <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Dave,


> On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org> wrote:=
>>
>> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245
>>
>> ht= tps://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-= 1849db81d0f5
>
> Nice.
>
> A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the sam= e time.
>
> Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these speeds= .
>
> Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to determine=
> if the link is suitable for gaming or not.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any = "twitch"-type reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in= an acceptable range of "RTTs" to and from the server so that all= perceive the world similarly and nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvanta= ge, so absolute RTT does seem to matter. I would agree that jitter is nasti= er in that is will cause "randomish" variations of the RTT, but t= hen the known solution against jitter is additional buffering (large enough= to simply even out the unequal jittered packet arrival times) which in tur= n just increases the "RTT", no? (I guess no game really does this= enough, so jitter stays the constant problem for internet game-play).
>

Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 = such as CoDM, Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to f= ace/conceal network conditions based on the experience the=C2=A0studio want= s to offer to the gamer.

=C2=A0

> We had them participating on this list at some point....
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vend= or NOT
>>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with so= meones
>>> with accounts?
>>>
>>> https://community.tp-link.com/u= s/home/forum/topic/511156
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>> https://wayforward.arc= hive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>>>
>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bl= oat
>
>
>
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> https://wayforward.archive.org= /?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ce= rowrt-devel

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