From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com (mail-ej1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE9EF3B29E for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2022 16:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id y3so5312131ejc.1 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2022 13:54:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=4IZFy5SUszMYR/UNc1/iNHwZk3p7taQkUVl+h2vgWTE=; b=VS3XAJTAA8GuwC/aDmonLpobJKjvgTi9fh9GsKAaKUpRR5ByNRA8xD/eqyuV6beqzF J3+J7adsBaSQ6LklGp2xwK+0PF/1/yu1BCC6SY3VONqxQ08eHSeTsg/rwDjpL0LPSb95 fvv+bSD5jmRSFXMh+efFAFKHNo3VfITXGrNBI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=4IZFy5SUszMYR/UNc1/iNHwZk3p7taQkUVl+h2vgWTE=; b=Z2NWDYXv3dCQZomAfpkN2pVDdA+pg+0eqpmnHmdeeaCR5jRVF6J9MWLhem4c700kox XNd6ZTbdbubADM6hAuy1fBUN0lIqX5g7YhXdzTEHZagNJSQWCcZGVJ1VAyXDU0cFZNw5 Zqxnqh940TcoX65Xh52o3co3LLcjQsrz8Gg0KeiFN0yxMn/UYxBJK/Xb7ACoYAqU97Ad d62vZWkRb7pGYKu25RK+U0GQoU1iQpEUFq0q+Ii6MfKWnJLiraEd4Vp5ROkVllb9kJJU akvsrtSg7hPEvk/P0Ipch1lIicn4CceeavJUlTLTZ+S6vyxDNhuBE1OFh0jrBppg57ZJ 5LQA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo2RoG2aie87VxiftJcY1sp3MIkZYENFTW8uHSZO13mMKlW80wHr KqWI0CeWGs55PVffqsdUwX94YNZREfMMVqL11bqioBfSU/Jfs9ElNdYmbgKubZsRMHuPeOz7vZs 8ijO7MBaZ7Ll+2XawoY8Y9cczjS+9pQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4zrj8YWnbTby2180/1OEwbdoSYjzXYRm8Q3s8TkQEO7z+ItWtUHAOu7cf7fhaD/Wd5TzrSxtchoc5VRc9oHkg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:80d:b0:73d:1e3f:3d83 with SMTP id wv13-20020a170907080d00b0073d1e3f3d83mr6311385ejb.372.1661547281560; Fri, 26 Aug 2022 13:54:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2022 13:54:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Neal Cardwell Cc: Dave Taht , bloat , BBR Development , ayush@comp.nus.edu.sg Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000084348c05e72b1f01" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [bbr-dev] Re: Are we heading towards a BBR-dominant Internet? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2022 20:54:43 -0000 --00000000000084348c05e72b1f01 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007f1d5d05e72b1fea" --0000000000007f1d5d05e72b1fea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Neal, Any thoughts on tooling to generate and measure the traffic flows BBR is designed to optimize? I've been adding some low duty cycle support in iperf 2 with things like --bounceback and --burst-period and --burst-period . We could pull the size and period from a known distribution or distributions though not sure what to pick. Thanks, Bob Bob On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development < bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this paper i= s > that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows. > > Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to dynamically > enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations become different. As is > well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if new flows enter and caus= e > loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typical 30ms broadband pat= h > with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows enter and cause loss > more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUBIC will not be able = to > utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, with 100ms RTT and fai= r > share of 10 Gbit/sec, if new flows enter and cause loss more frequently > than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be able to utilize its > fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve itself in some > very typical kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real world. > > BBR is not trying to maintain a higher throughput than CUBIC in these > kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BBR is trying to be robu= st > to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in the real world when the= re > are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottleneck. > > cheers, > neal > > > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> I rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would happen >> if we plugged some different assumptions into their model. >> >> https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf >> >> -- >> FQ World Domination pending: >> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BBR Development" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bbr-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bbr-dev/CADVnQykKbnxpNcpuZATug_4VLhV1%3= DaoTTQE2263o8HF9ye_TQg%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000007f1d5d05e72b1fea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Neal,

Any thoughts on tooling to generate and me= asure the traffic flows BBR is designed to optimize? I've been adding s= ome low duty cycle support in iperf 2 with things like --bounceback and --burst-period and --burst-period. We could pull the size and period from a known distribution or distribu= tions though not sure what to pick.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob
<= br>
On Fri,= Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development <bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> = wrote:
Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this = paper is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows.
Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to = dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations become differe= nt. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if new flows enter = and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typical 30ms broad= band path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows enter and cau= se loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUBIC will not be= able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, with 100ms RTT = and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec,=C2=A0 if new flows enter and cause loss more= frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be able to ut= ilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve itself in some ve= ry=C2=A0typical=C2=A0kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real wor= ld.

BBR is not trying to maintain a higher through= put than CUBIC in these kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BB= R is trying to be robust to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in = the real world when there are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottlene= ck.

cheers,
neal




On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bl= oat <bl= oat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wo= nder what would happen
if we plugged some different assumptions into their model.

https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong= /publications/imc2022-nash.pdf

--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.or= g/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

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