From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E83A3B2A4 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 18:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id s11so8116398edd.13 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 15:39:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=L8beHkTXzOpPreU4oOuNqRrJ/SoFeViFxlaPr7QIRqs=; b=JnXcn3fRbn5+E587RMGpsNk6bXxZhHQf6WQZ7qTWN7Ozu0NxUouZfnhWQ/0LOfFAt8 2gjtkXEAVUrsWYdlujZUjVJGtGhXWZ/za1T5izKcqCosb1pzg1CS0ikqlMIkYIUen+BK WdvkC6sPEShaOO+tkxHQ2udwQX6g0Gj7bSscM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=L8beHkTXzOpPreU4oOuNqRrJ/SoFeViFxlaPr7QIRqs=; b=z/YG80bMRBXlOmUamp/N3zT5CkRbnoA4XJh93aR3oFBDFB0JaH+lljxnlyyCPjnJbP 3uLsRP6SvAo70T4x5nstKScVJaf5dJJAmTzXq1gQ3qF33QR2soN2jgQa/LoS9/ZFAKQ/ otSbatM9TAvL5VIdRY6rBxqkdhQTthj9sEhFP/OJgX44YPxjieS81YcArjGibvMRbxNc pby7P5OtWBEf8SYS3SGpuCSNVRFYMI0dNLoM03aD2uVSWQmCIrhPmJRfb6tl48ltr3jy IHgxEDv3a8jTxSbCija3yWT1l8Nr7M85XiHhVn7h5ySCLwlT8iMkZ/KXFUXuqO4pMFwV 93qw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo0b52+Gj4oep5TLP3qL64JSwdIpREkKd6MPQ0cRRpJnppiZJdnp yYWhOJtK8gWAk8AIMIbMTecgws4z8p06+oObAY/imaoC8w6we4iiPM3/KX10LKL3nfknjCXirkr Pu9DOtHMmZC3nS8HFW6AU+++9oub4cA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR6NndiqTF4j/13/M0VYCHBxJildKvFi7AKUndbtlm2P15afqpS2nTEVehO3JoDHj1W6xtkj++2fnhk2bUH78Pk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:447:b0:440:d482:495f with SMTP id p7-20020a056402044700b00440d482495fmr15092827edw.264.1661726377186; Sun, 28 Aug 2022 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 15:39:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: Neal Cardwell Cc: Dave Taht , bloat , BBR Development , ayush@comp.nus.edu.sg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006d557f05e754d2fb" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [bbr-dev] Re: Are we heading towards a BBR-dominant Internet? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 22:39:39 -0000 --0000000000006d557f05e754d2fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Neal, These look like steady-state bulk flow tests unless I'm missing something. Bob On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 11:43 AM Neal Cardwell wrote= : > Sure. For testing these kinds of properties of the BBR algorithm we use > various transperf test cases. The transperf tool is something Soheil Hass= as > Yeganeh and our team cooked up and open-sourced here: > > https://github.com/google/transperf > > Best regards, > neal > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 4:43 PM Bob McMahon > wrote: > >> Curious to what you're doing during development, if you can share? >> >> Thanks, >> Bob >> >> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Cardwell >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Bob, >>> >>> Good question. I can imagine a number of different techniques to >>> generate and measure the traffic flows for this kind of study, and don'= t >>> have any particular suggestions. >>> >>> neal >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM Bob McMahon >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Neal, >>>> >>>> Any thoughts on tooling to generate and measure the traffic flows BBR >>>> is designed to optimize? I've been adding some low duty cycle support = in iperf >>>> 2 with things like --bounce= back >>>> and --burst-period and --burst-period >>>> . We could pull the >>>> size and period from a known distribution or distributions though not = sure >>>> what to pick. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM 'Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development < >>>> bbr-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One key aspect of this >>>>> paper is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of bulk flows. >>>>> >>>>> Once you allow for short flows (like web pages, RPCs, etc) to >>>>> dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerations become >>>>> different. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves if new= flows >>>>> enter and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat typica= l 30ms >>>>> broadband path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new flows en= ter >>>>> and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds then CUBI= C will >>>>> not be able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN path, wit= h >>>>> 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec, if new flows enter and caus= e loss >>>>> more frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC will not be = able >>>>> to utilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starve itself= in >>>>> some very typical kinds of dynamic scenarios that happen in the real = world. >>>>> >>>>> BBR is not trying to maintain a higher throughput than CUBIC in these >>>>> kinds of scenarios with steady-state bulk flows. BBR is trying to be = robust >>>>> to the kinds of random packet loss that happen in the real world when= there >>>>> are flows dynamically entering/leaving a bottleneck. >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> neal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < >>>>> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would happen >>>>>> if we plugged some different assumptions into their model. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> FQ World Domination pending: >>>>>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >>>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Bloat mailing list >>>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BBR Development" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to bbr-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bbr-dev/CADVnQykKbnxpNcpuZATug_4VLh= V1%3DaoTTQE2263o8HF9ye_TQg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> This electronic communication and the information and any files >>>> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are inten= ded >>>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed= and >>>> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, prot= ected >>>> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone els= e. If >>>> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliv= ering >>>> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= use, >>>> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying= of >>>> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in err= or, >>>> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, = and >>>> destroy any printed copy of it. >>> >>> >> This electronic communication and the information and any files >> transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intende= d >> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed a= nd >> may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protec= ted >> by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else.= If >> you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliver= ing >> the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any u= se, >> copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying o= f >> this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error= , >> please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, an= d >> destroy any printed copy of it. > > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000006d557f05e754d2fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Neal,

These look like steady-state b= ulk flow tests unless I'm missing something.

Bob

=
On Sun, Au= g 28, 2022 at 11:43 AM Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com> wrote:
Sure. For tes= ting these kinds of properties of the BBR algorithm we use various transper= f test cases. The transperf tool is something Soheil Hassas Yeganeh and our= team cooked up and open-sourced here:


Best= regards,
neal

O= n Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 4:43 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com= > wrote:
=
Curious to what you're doing during development, if yo= u can share?

Thanks,
Bob

On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 7:44 AM Neal Card= well <ncardwell@google.com> wrote:
Hi Bob,

=
Good question. I can imagine a number of different techniques to= generate and measure the traffic flows for this kind of study, and don'= ;t have any particular suggestions.

neal


On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:54 PM Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com> wrote:
Hi Neal,

Any thoughts on t= ooling to generate and measure the traffic flows BBR is designed to optimiz= e? I've been adding some low duty cycle support in iperf 2 with things like --boun= ceback and --burst-period and --burst-period. We could pull the size an= d period from a known distribution or distributions though not sure what to= pick.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob

On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 6:36 AM '= ;Neal Cardwell' via BBR Development <bbr-dev@google= groups.com> wrote:
Yes, I agree the assumptions are key here. One = key aspect of this paper is that it focuses on the steady-state behavior of= bulk flows.

Once you allow for short flows (like web pa= ges, RPCs, etc) to dynamically enter and leave a bottleneck, the considerat= ions become different. As is well-known, Reno/CUBIC will starve themselves = if new flows enter and cause loss too frequently. For CUBIC, for a somewhat= typical 30ms broadband path with a flow fair share of 25 Mbit/sec, if new = flows enter and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 2 seconds the= n CUBIC will not be able to utilize its fair share. For a high-speed WAN pa= th, with 100ms RTT and fair share of 10 Gbit/sec,=C2=A0 if new flows enter = and cause loss more frequently than roughly every 40 seconds then CUBIC wil= l not be able to utilize its fair share. Basically, loss-based CC can starv= e itself in some very=C2=A0typical=C2=A0kinds of dynamic scenarios that hap= pen in the real world.

BBR is not trying to mainta= in a higher throughput than CUBIC in these kinds of scenarios with steady-s= tate bulk flows. BBR is trying to be robust to the kinds of random packet l= oss that happen in the real world when there are flows dynamically entering= /leaving a bottleneck.

cheers,
neal




On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:01 = PM Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>> wrote:
I= rather enjoyed this one. I can't help but wonder what would happen
if we plugged some different assumptions into their model.

https://www.c= omp.nus.edu.sg/~bleong/publications/imc2022-nash.pdf

--
FQ World Domination pending: h= ttps://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/list= info/bloat

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BBR Development" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bbr-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bbr-dev/C= ADVnQykKbnxpNcpuZATug_4VLhV1%3DaoTTQE2263o8HF9ye_TQg%40mail.gmail.com.<= br>

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it.
This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --0000000000006d557f05e754d2fb--