From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 569703B2A4 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id t15so12824111edr.11 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 13:59:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/3wfll/iQNSOXvVfhSgp30krXvxz8WHbWZf0/z85gCE=; b=MIKtAlUKpRA/8Ya9mUwHW6Ef32p0bgKrpoLry3bQ0F5qrUTRyIpu+GMTd2F9cwfmfs a03+s+1Iy16m+kOEXtCpInyOeKmp6/4UycQyyOkCQsWVxsBZC3DWFcFx/pVGpL+12SyR CSQr9m06KAMZcEDv1IaPZZ8pWj5M12enlxtt4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/3wfll/iQNSOXvVfhSgp30krXvxz8WHbWZf0/z85gCE=; b=Wuhz7OxBxkVuKkxdQ6nBjS1pDfTOPCHF+TdNn8tqNwMr3Xw9/XxcBr2UGuwtQsPbVY 4Sz6Gp2YKhmMaGxPc5eLruGNr3nYzetFn2rH7VXBj5iqh6e7FnsgKZDNnmkFBLveRhGZ nQ7d0lizvO7XzPqBceWC82AZ/ZvHOSTc6mVsaFIKHlmz48cI2W/rnwKBmEHZzHDnVLHg paPLU3iCCPdHwEycvdmnphxM9LlBSnaWMcNhpNArr/LTzFx3R4sivWb+HjAvt11+3E4V yQfpFM0zoMLImOnwgIvqvai9ssw5WquUvfDK9swdqwb56dhg/QIR4i2Uiwtuye6Kq/LW GguQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531U5DLm+tSWx+ipwxboGD6hMz0OMvuHQf1Damc5wqnjqea7jbNn V+TwkJ+ByzyReG+jxk/RkC1o8lF0jQIaOqJnQQQZebXi1KFGWp7SeBwqlir+EBjNn58ZMkjpoqC rxvWkIYf1wicDu97PCqW3P+u6lZdb/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzf8WnULHnxDCWbrNWKowTAnx9EHV6kgq0QOTZfsLSeYBnw7889r9Vxga6EkmSVqr8zId3wW/JCSTgIsC/9Zug= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:cd90:: with SMTP id x16mr9246891edv.182.1621371561160; Tue, 18 May 2021 13:59:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <666B8455-7B26-4E89-A7F2-0279B4D67FCB@cable.comcast.com> <13254.1620835357@localhost> <28847.1620853812@localhost> <3368CD2E-E92E-418A-ACA6-772D42FEC2AD@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 13:59:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Neil Davies Cc: Matt Mathis , Jonathan Morton , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000f9b71705c2a0fb46" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [EXTERNAL] Re: Terminology for Laypeople X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 20:59:22 -0000 --000000000000f9b71705c2a0fb46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f40c3105c2a0fbf3" --000000000000f40c3105c2a0fbf3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The idea of precision without accuracy seems an issue. Curios about that. Bob On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 11:31 PM Neil Davies wrote: > Matt > > This is such a great idea that the Broadband Forum has been working on it > for a couple of years now - see TR452.1 > https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf - it is being > actively worked on, it can exploit existing infrastructures (such equipme= nt > that supports STAMP etc), it doesn=E2=80=99t need accurate clocks (just r= easonable > precision), it can be used both end-to-end and hop-by-hop (using the same > measurement stream) and it has a formal mathematical basis (which has a > whole host of benefits that companies are starting to exploit). > > Neil > > On 17 May 2021, at 22:27, Matt Mathis via Bloat < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > I just got a cool idea: I wonder if it is original....? > > Write or adapt a spec based on "A One-way Active Measurement Protocol" > (OWAMP - RFC4656), as an application layer LAG metric. Suitably framed > OWAMP messages could be injected as close as possible to the socket write > in the sending applications, and decoded as close as possible to the > receiving application's read, independent of all other protocol details. > > This could expose lag, latency and jitter in a standardized way, that can > be reported by the applications and replicated by measurement diagnostics > that can be compared apples-to-apples. The default data collection shoul= d > probably be histograms of one way delays. > > This would expose problematic delays in all parts of the stack, including > excess socket buffers, etc. > > This could be adapted to any application protocol that has an appropriate > framing layer, including ndt7. > > Thanks, > --MM-- > The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay > > We must not tolerate intolerance; > however our response must be carefully measured: > too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of > control; > too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval. > > > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 4:14 AM Jonathan Morton > wrote: > >> On 13 May, 2021, at 12:10 am, Michael Richardson >> wrote: >> >> But, I'm looking for terminology that I can use with my mother-in-law. >> >> >> Here's a slide I used a while ago, which seems to be relevant here: >> >> >> >> The important thing about the term "quick" in this context is that >> throughput capacity can contribute to it in some circumstances, but is >> mostly irrelevant in others. For small requests, throughput is irreleva= nt >> and quickness is a direct result of low latency. >> >> For a grandmother-friendly analogy, consider what you'd do if you wanted >> milk for your breakfast cereal, but found the fridge was empty. The ide= al >> solution to this problem would be to walk down the road to the village s= hop >> and buy a bottle of milk, then walk back home. That might take about te= n >> minutes - reasonably "quick". It might take twice that long if you have= to >> wait for someone who wants to scratch off a dozen lottery tickets right = at >> the counter while paying by cheque; it's politer for such people to step >> out of the way. >> >> My village doesn't have a shop, so that's not an option. But I've seen >> dairy tankers going along the main road, so I could consider flagging on= e >> of them down. Most of them ignore the lunatic trying to do that, and th= e >> one that does (five hours later) decides to offload a thousand gallons o= f >> milk instead of the pint I actually wanted, to make it worth his while. >> That made rather a mess of my kitchen and was quite expensive. Dairy >> tankers are set up for "fast" transport of milk - high throughput, not >> optimised for latency. >> >> The non-lunatic alternative would be to get on my bicycle and go to the >> supermarket in town. That takes about two hours, there and back. It ta= kes >> me basically the same amount of time to fetch that one bottle of milk as= it >> would to conduct a full shopping trip, and I can't reduce that time at a= ll >> without upgrading to something faster than a bicycle, or moving house to >> somewhere closer to town. That's latency for you. >> >> - Jonathan Morton >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000f40c3105c2a0fbf3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The idea of precision without accuracy seems an issue.=C2= =A0 Curios about that.

Bob
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 11:31 PM Neil Davies <= ;neil.davies@pns= ol.com> wrote:
Matt

This is such a great idea that the Broad= band Forum has been working on it for a couple of years now - see TR452.1= =C2=A0https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf=C2= =A0- it is being actively worked on, it can exploit existing infrastructure= s (such equipment that supports STAMP etc), it doesn=E2=80=99t need accurat= e clocks (just reasonable precision), it can be used both end-to-end and ho= p-by-hop (using the same measurement stream) and it has a formal mathematic= al basis (which has a whole host of benefits that companies are starting to= exploit).=C2=A0

Neil

On 17 May 2021, at 22:27, Matt Mathis via Bloat <bloat@lists.buffe= rbloat.net> wrote:

I just got a cool = idea: I wonder if it is original....?

Write or adapt a spec ba= sed on "A One-way Active Measurement Protocol" (OWAMP - RFC4656),= as an application layer LAG metric.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Suitably=C2=A0framed OWAMP= messages could be injected as close as possible=C2=A0to the socket write i= n the sending applications, and decoded as close as possible to the receivi= ng application's read, independent of all other protocol details.=C2=A0=

This could expose lag, latency and jitter in a st= andardized way, that can be reported=C2=A0by the applications and replicate= d=C2=A0by measurement diagnostics that can be compared apples-to-apples.=C2= =A0=C2=A0The default data collection should probably be histograms of one w= ay delays.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

This would expose problem= atic delays in all parts=C2=A0of the stack, including excess socket buffers= , etc.

This could be adapted to any application pr= otocol that has an appropriate framing layer, including ndt7.

<= /div>
Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it= . =C2=A0- Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must be carefully = measured:=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too str= ong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for ta= cit approval.


=
On Mon, Ma= y 17, 2021 at 4:14 AM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 May, 2021, at 12:10 am, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:

B= ut, I'm looking for terminology that I can use with my mother-in-law.

Here's a slide I used a while ago, which seems = to be relevant here:

<fast-quick.00= 1.png>

The important thing about the ter= m "quick" in this context is that throughput capacity can contrib= ute to it in some circumstances, but is mostly irrelevant in others.=C2=A0 = For small requests, throughput is irrelevant and quickness is a direct resu= lt of low latency.

For a grandmother-friendly anal= ogy, consider what you'd do if you wanted milk for your breakfast cerea= l, but found the fridge was empty.=C2=A0 The ideal solution to this problem= would be to walk down the road to the village shop and buy a bottle of mil= k, then walk back home.=C2=A0 That might take about ten minutes - reasonabl= y "quick".=C2=A0 It might take twice that long if you have to wai= t for someone who wants to scratch off a dozen lottery tickets right at the= counter while paying by cheque; it's politer for such people to step o= ut of the way.

My village doesn't have a shop,= so that's not an option.=C2=A0 But I've seen dairy tankers going a= long the main road, so I could consider flagging one of them down.=C2=A0 Mo= st of them ignore the lunatic trying to do that, and the one that does (fiv= e hours later) decides to offload a thousand gallons of milk instead of the= pint I actually wanted, to make it worth his while.=C2=A0 That made rather= a mess of my kitchen and was quite expensive.=C2=A0 Dairy tankers are set = up for "fast" transport of milk - high throughput, not optimised = for latency.

The non-lunatic alternative would be = to get on my bicycle and go to the supermarket in town.=C2=A0 That takes ab= out two hours, there and back.=C2=A0 It takes me basically the same amount = of time to fetch that one bottle of milk as it would to conduct a full shop= ping trip, and I can't reduce that time at all without upgrading to som= ething faster than a bicycle, or moving house to somewhere closer to town.= =C2=A0 That's latency for you.

=C2=A0- Jonatha= n Morton
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.= bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
=


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