From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 788713CB37 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2024 13:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3df0c4a65baso2675757b6e.2 for ; Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; t=1725298144; x=1725902944; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=dt7f6sAzlNDWV53eFezMW/9ieb8D9TIGamqoc5XZDAA=; b=CDVVQYCwjP96pu9C7Wo/b8ZJvW9AsIZpMg+wQEay5lPqANHr6uyoXXo6dY2xQK8l/o Cg/xEyR/nf4hMC6gpKMtMkBD+RndisSVWAcU4A/nsq2D62trGroVTBW7ZhbX9JS57CyV JV2XEN4AAdIzNLzFpii8GE9JDF3v5z0GJyNq0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725298144; x=1725902944; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=dt7f6sAzlNDWV53eFezMW/9ieb8D9TIGamqoc5XZDAA=; b=JMQ6/tONYymHmppx4aiusEaIZMG2H44izqb4ewEADzORgLsTdjLlSQla15szs8a/t7 qyHid8qOdruixESf0hqEuetQyX8xt1wtyBrbAljuIAdTuiJXbJPzvNsRewMoa+eTp9bx f25Kvk1CW69CbVKWX1pc553V9gA/bU1lHj+N/pNRloJdqpf1X0sFw9uMwBUBB3LsMsJT 0CvrOoifrHaKVy/VO+diefC6lzxc/egQBvaDxIhZRfY2tFJ5THu5qv/TPdQR5KzHefqf RT/rq0sW+3OvIfpGfDmwXvReanSMS+VELvpc9WPMoGZcxLHXeKs0Xco0hYIEZLEv68tF dUxA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUR8SYYtgptCT2L10kkqSFTIk68c9CFp9Za/DDguVQ3QKl2jQeKgGzjTAc2NTxaV/sWv39CRQ==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx6oFBwLyHyr6i+6WXmPVlvZjPpHhLmdyA8pVWUnGHomgK0s3wo XXjL6lbkOwrm1lsSHQRgzgrOtxQs2Pc673N+djZYRhohStWZFDNcjlBJ7GV/ixa6+KriVNLVwzu QPyV9NWMDj0JkTLN221C+59Goa9d4btjLxJs+LFoz1vLyMDIff8xFfn+03jdJ8YJULNVd+zXvjG AiUvxAExY600gbJN4NRKpTW8I5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHGsSj/zc+RCqTqGz0vE5mzRe4Ct3ShDZKrI7VevtBMlG1Sp3z8Jt8BDUaxdLx0mpRYrVAANVzLx0fx1ezNwcA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1203:b0:3dd:349c:ba5b with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3df05dbe25emr15303176b6e.24.1725298143589; Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:29:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240902042024.8A7E3620054@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> <13so850r-s23q-r0sp-0nqp-ss9q2q522542@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <13so850r-s23q-r0sp-0nqp-ss9q2q522542@ynat.uz> From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2024 10:28:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Hal Murray , Starlink , Make-Wifi-fast , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000027e0d06212647c2" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] bloat on wifi8 and 802.11 wg X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 17:29:04 -0000 --000000000000027e0d06212647c2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb20cf06212646f3" --000000000000fb20cf06212646f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is David's experience. It doesn't extrapolate to the industry. Our testing as a component supplier is quite extensive. The level of math required likely equals ML. The table stakes for a 2 BSS system with hidden nodes, etc is $80K. That's just equipment. Then test engineers with deep expertise of 802.11 have to be hired. And they have to continuously learn as 802.11 is a living standard. And now they need to learn CCAs and network marking planes. Then this all has to be paid for typically through component sells as there are no software SKUs. The cadences for new ASICs is 24 months. The cadences for OSP upgrades is 10 to 20 years. Of course testing is under funded. No stock b.s. to pay the bills. It has to come from discounted cash flows. Everyone wants the experts to work for free. Iperf2 is that already. I don't see any more freebies on the horizon. Bob On Sun, Sep 1, 2024, 10:05 PM David Lang via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On Sun, 1 Sep 2024, Hal Murray via Make-wifi-fast wrote: > > > David Lang said: > >> It really doesn't help that everyone in the industry is pushing for > >> higher bandwidth for a single host. That's a nice benchmark number, but > >> not really relevant int he real world. > > > >> Even mu-mimo is of limited use as most routers only handle a handful of > >> clients. > > > >> But the biggest problem is just the push to use wider channels and gain > >> efficiency in long-running bulk transfers by bundling lots of IP packets > >> into a single transmission. This works well when you don't have > >> congestion and have a small number of clients. But when you have lots > of > >> clients, spanning many generations of wifi technology, you need to go > to > >> narrower channels, but more separate routers to maximize the fairness > of > >> available airtime. > > > > What does that say about the minimal collection of gear required in a > test > > lab? > > > > If you had a lab with plenty of gear, what tests would you run? > > I'll start off by saying that my experience is from practical in-the-field > uses, > deploying wifi to support thousands of users in a conference setting. It's > possible that some people are doing the tests I describe below in their > labs, > but from the way routers and wifi standards are advertised and the guides > to > deploy them are written, it doesn't seem like they are. > > My belief is that most of the tests are done in relatively clean RF > environments > where only the devices on the test network exist, and they can always hear > everyone on the network. In such environments, everything about existing > wifi > standards and the push for higher bandwidth channels makes a lot of sense > (there > are still some latency problems) > > But the world outside the lab is far more complex > > you need to simulate a dispursed, congested RF environment. This includes > hidden > transmitters (stations A-B-C where B can hear A and C but A and C cannot > hear > each other), dealing with weak signals (already covered), interactions of > independent networks on the same channels (a-b and c-d that cannot talk to > each > other), legacy equipment on the network (as slow as 802.11g at least, if > not > 802.11b to simulate old IoT devices), and a mix of bulk-transfers > (download/uploads), buffered streaming (constant traffic, but buffered so > not > super-sentitive to latency), unbuffered streaming (low bandwidth, but > sensitive > to latency), and short, latency sensitive traffic (things that block other > traffic until they are answered, like DNS, http cache checks, http main > pages > that they pull lots of other URLs, etc) > > test large number of people in a given area (start with an all wireless > office, > then move on to classroom density), test not just one room, but multiple > rooms > that partially hear each other (the amount of attenuation or reflection > between > the rooms needs to vary). The ultimate density test would be a > stadium-type > setting where you have rows of chairs, but not tables and everyone is > trying to > livestream (or view a livestream) at once. > > Test not just the ultra-wide bandwidth with a single AP in the rooms, but > narrower channels with multiple APs distributed around the rooms. Test APs > positioned high, and set to high power to have large coverage areas > against APs > positioned low (signals get absorbed by people, so channels can be reused > at > shorter distances) and set to low power (microcell approach). Test APs > overhead > with directional antennas so they cover a small footprint. > > Test with different types of walls around/between the rooms, metal studs > and > sheetrock of a modern office have very little affect on signals, > stone/brick > walls of old buildings (and concrete walls in some areas of new buildings) > absorb the signal, the metal grid in movable air walls blocks and reflects > signals > > Remember that these are operating in 'unlicensed' spectrum, and so you can > have > other devices operating here as well causing periodic interference (which > could > show up as short segments of corruption or just an increased noise floor). > Current wifi standards interpret any failed signals as a weak signal, so > they > drop down to a slower modulation or increasing power in the hope of > getting the > signal through. If the problem is actually interference from other devices > (especially other APs that it can't decipher), the result is that all > stations > end up yelling slowly to try and get through and the result is very high > levels > of noise and no messages getting through. Somehow, the systems should > detect > that the noise floor is high and/or that there is other stuff happening on > the > network that they can hear, but not necessarily decipher and switch away > from > the 'weak signal' mode of operation (which is appropriate in sparse > environments), and instead work to talk faster and at lower power to try > and > reduce the overall interference while still getting their signal through. > (it does no good for one station to be transmitting at 3w while the > station it's > talking to is transmitting at 50mw). As far as I know, there is currently > no way > for stations to signal what power they are using (and the effective power > would > be modified by the antenna system, both transmitted and received), so this > may > be that something like 'I'm transmitting at 50% of my max and I hear you > at 30% > with noise at 10%' <-> 'I'm transmitting at 100% of my max and I hear you > at 80% > woth noise at 30%' could cause the first station to cut down on it's power > until > the two are hearing each other at similar levels (pure speculation here, > suggestion for research ideas) > > > How many different tests would it take to give reasonable coverage? > > That's hard for me to say, and not every device needs to go through every > test. > But when working on a new standard, it needs to go through a lot of these > tests, > the most important ones IMHO are how they work with a high density of > users > accessing multiple routers which are distributed so there is overlapping > coverage and include a mix of network traffic. > > David Lang > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000fb20cf06212646f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is David's experience. It doesn't extrapolat= e to the industry. Our testing as a component supplier is quite extensive. = The level of math required likely equals ML. The table stakes for a 2 BSS s= ystem with hidden nodes, etc is $80K. That's just equipment. Then test = engineers with deep expertise of 802.11 have to be hired. And they have to = continuously learn as 802.11 is a living standard. And now they need to lea= rn CCAs and network marking planes. Then this all has to be paid for typica= lly through component sells as there are no software SKUs.=C2=A0

The cadences for new ASICs is 24 months.= The cadences for OSP upgrades is 10 to 20 years.=C2=A0
Of course testing is under funded. No stock b.s. = to pay the bills. It has to come from discounted cash flows.

Everyone wants the experts to work fo= r free. Iperf2 is that already. I don't see any more freebies on the ho= rizon.

Bob

On Sun, Sep 1, 2024, 10:05 PM David Lang via Make-wif= i-fast <make-wif= i-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024, Hal Murray via Make-wifi-fast wrote:

> David Lang said:
>> It really doesn't help that everyone in the industry is pushin= g for
>> higher=C2=A0 bandwidth for a single host. That's a nice benchm= ark number, but
>> not really=C2=A0 relevant int he real world.
>
>> Even mu-mimo is of limited use as most routers only handle a handf= ul of
>> clients.
>
>> But the biggest problem is just the push to use wider channels and= gain
>> efficiency in long-running bulk transfers by bundling lots of IP p= ackets
>> into a=C2=A0 single transmission. This works well when you don'= ;t have
>> congestion and have a=C2=A0 small number of clients. But when you = have lots of
>> clients, spanning many=C2=A0 generations of wifi technology, you n= eed to go to
>> narrower channels, but more=C2=A0 separate routers to maximize the= fairness of
>> available airtime.
>
> What does that say about the minimal collection of gear required in a = test
> lab?
>
> If you had a lab with plenty of gear, what tests would you run?

I'll start off by saying that my experience is from practical in-the-fi= eld uses,
deploying wifi to support thousands of users in a conference setting. It= 9;s
possible that some people are doing the tests I describe below in their lab= s,
but from the way routers and wifi standards are advertised and the guides t= o
deploy them are written, it doesn't seem like they are.

My belief is that most of the tests are done in relatively clean RF environ= ments
where only the devices on the test network exist, and they can always hear =
everyone on the network. In such environments, everything about existing wi= fi
standards and the push for higher bandwidth channels makes a lot of sense (= there
are still some latency problems)

But the world outside the lab is far more complex

you need to simulate a dispursed, congested RF environment. This includes h= idden
transmitters (stations A-B-C where B can hear A and C but A and C cannot he= ar
each other), dealing with weak signals (already covered), interactions of <= br> independent networks on the same channels (a-b and c-d that cannot talk to = each
other), legacy equipment on the network (as slow as 802.11g at least, if no= t
802.11b to simulate old IoT devices), and a mix of bulk-transfers
(download/uploads), buffered streaming (constant traffic, but buffered so n= ot
super-sentitive to latency), unbuffered streaming (low bandwidth, but sensi= tive
to latency), and short, latency sensitive traffic (things that block other =
traffic until they are answered, like DNS, http cache checks, http main pag= es
that they pull lots of other URLs, etc)

test large number of people in a given area (start with an all wireless off= ice,
then move on to classroom density), test not just one room, but multiple ro= oms
that partially hear each other (the amount of attenuation or reflection bet= ween
the rooms needs to vary). The ultimate density test would be a stadium-type=
setting where you have rows of chairs, but not tables and everyone is tryin= g to
livestream (or view a livestream) at once.

Test not just the ultra-wide bandwidth with a single AP in the rooms, but <= br> narrower channels with multiple APs distributed around the rooms. Test APs =
positioned high, and set to high power to have large coverage areas against= APs
positioned low (signals get absorbed by people, so channels can be reused a= t
shorter distances) and set to low power (microcell approach). Test APs over= head
with directional antennas so they cover a small footprint.

Test with different types of walls around/between the rooms, metal studs an= d
sheetrock of a modern office have very little affect on signals, stone/bric= k
walls of old buildings (and concrete walls in some areas of new buildings) =
absorb the signal, the metal grid in movable air walls blocks and reflects =
signals

Remember that these are operating in 'unlicensed' spectrum, and so = you can have
other devices operating here as well causing periodic interference (which c= ould
show up as short segments of corruption or just an increased noise floor). =
Current wifi standards interpret any failed signals as a weak signal, so th= ey
drop down to a slower modulation or increasing power in the hope of getting= the
signal through. If the problem is actually interference from other devices =
(especially other APs that it can't decipher), the result is that all s= tations
end up yelling slowly to try and get through and the result is very high le= vels
of noise and no messages getting through. Somehow, the systems should detec= t
that the noise floor is high and/or that there is other stuff happening on = the
network that they can hear, but not necessarily decipher and switch away fr= om
the 'weak signal' mode of operation (which is appropriate in sparse=
environments), and instead work to talk faster and at lower power to try an= d
reduce the overall interference while still getting their signal through. <= br> (it does no good for one station to be transmitting at 3w while the station= it's
talking to is transmitting at 50mw). As far as I know, there is currently n= o way
for stations to signal what power they are using (and the effective power w= ould
be modified by the antenna system, both transmitted and received), so this = may
be that something like 'I'm transmitting at 50% of my max and I hea= r you at 30%
with noise at 10%' <-> 'I'm transmitting at 100% of my ma= x and I hear you at 80%
woth noise at 30%' could cause the first station to cut down on it'= s power until
the two are hearing each other at similar levels (pure speculation here, suggestion for research ideas)

> How many different tests would it take to give reasonable coverage?
That's hard for me to say, and not every device needs to go through eve= ry test.
But when working on a new standard, it needs to go through a lot of these t= ests,
the most important ones IMHO are how they work with a high density of users=
accessing multiple routers which are distributed so there is overlapping coverage and include a mix of network traffic.

David Lang
_______________________________________________
Make-wifi-fast mailing list
Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/make-wifi-fast

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000fb20cf06212646f3-- --000000000000027e0d06212647c2 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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