From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EAE13CB49; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id o82so1223236qka.11; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:21:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679376072; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+GWdgqAYNTSJMCOdRyKPOmZPEoKRfJa50JZsE3/bY+M=; b=ej5n6+MWibEDqC8Wew7ybvjEboGRFRC4LMEdTxhLHqtCHAT4k4aCXKR4FsBE2d1R1T vSqnAL+mp1524HV+MflhbC5bReMorqqAbR/BidxUZKVU9i1ywyWR2S4+3L6E1t8i89W4 HBhujOxQvIkRfMjwNVUCgOOSCZULr1F2sjG70t2F4avsBFmy7tWhJpnVC8lZZl5jQQP0 ZLmeBCFAEFTmMGYnwjj4BcKYHMUjehlaaqKp4mgGv8kndUTUc3WqyqAsaa8VME8QkeLs x3jbsdelicTnFhvEb8FIsl5Tmq6G/WCOoehy2mmuccTYzz9xiWzTJL1o02lD9w7AHY1f JquA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679376072; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+GWdgqAYNTSJMCOdRyKPOmZPEoKRfJa50JZsE3/bY+M=; b=oZ8/ikye6MYtR/K752uH8+qt43cpuLhzEQ4bgl6jSfpyA8oIfiHhQxb4qMZXNA/Hrg kArPHiRALXnT0Hek39nX9e+cEkejo/X/n3sO0T2SzX8I5lN7ImdkYDnfdtSAFjtcnAv4 KM2pMJ4fBpcK3iajK0iSlerYSb/iyxF4cdAmauPy+isAJ3RkN7XlI7/zDW5ZJrpMLB2N kgbScbUOjAt7nFmoZOclU8iEHbcdiq2wIg5xZOHH/JA2GBV/Ep9jhTDyuXPAk7b/5Ob+ 0gaA5LaOYL1p6w7zQ7lmP/KSwxRVrvcnXC5PT7RcFhHq8P7LoV7gT6rRld25DvH1VhIM UwKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUcEA9yp2mhWgEorwE0adwwNf1tP3TI5jjsN4llfN0ledrsXTR6 VvhHiDGC1ucLiSWJYQ+KNPkuAy5ydV5W3PzG6Fuyrf5r X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8PcbEl7BfaWYEnu0ZweHnKk6leRp7sZnpcubMgapz4YVwxJWIvJZ3r3u3T2FeivtU/9VFyJaWIZy25PtJmkc8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:7e6:b0:746:7fbd:e22f with SMTP id k6-20020a05620a07e600b007467fbde22fmr250884qkk.12.1679376071721; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 895490483151 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:21:10 -0700 From: Frantisek Borsik In-Reply-To: <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> References: <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:21:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk, dan Cc: Michael Richardson , bloat , Rpm , Dave Taht via Starlink , libreqos , rjmcmahon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003305f005f76236e6" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 05:21:12 -0000 --0000000000003305f005f76236e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even at Friday evening Netflix time, there=E2=80=99s hardly more than 25/5 = Mbps consumed. Also, the real improvements that will be really felt by the people are on the bufferbloat front (enterprise as well as residential) If there=E2=80=99s just single one talk that everyone should watch from tha= t Understanding Latency webinar series I have shared, it=E2=80=99s this one, = with Gino Dion (Nokia Bell Labs), Magnus Olden (Domos - Latency Management) and Angus Laurie-Pile (GameBench): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMRmcWyIVXvg&t=3D1358s It=E2=80=99s all about the 1-25Gbps misconception, what we did to put it ou= t there as techies, and what can be done to show the customers to change that=E2=80= =A640 minutes, but it=E2=80=99s WORTHWHILE. Really shows that it goes beyond gamers - they were just a canary in the coal mine pre-covid. Now, I hope to really piss You off with the following statement :-P but: even sub 5/1 Mbps =E2=80=9Cbroadband=E2=80=9D in Africa with bufferbloat fi= xed on as many hops along the internet journey from a data center to the customers mobile device (or with just LibreQoS middle box in the ISP=E2=80=99s network) is f= eeling way better than 25Gbps XG-PON. The only time the XG-PON guy could really feel like a king of the world would be during his speedtest. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On 21 March 2023 at 1:10:21 AM, Brandon Butterworth (brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk) wrote: > On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote: > > I more or less agree with you Frantisek. There are throughput numbers > that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often > met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K > streams plus browsing and so forth > > > It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before > the next upgrade round. > > This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK. > > It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big > number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets > with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal > point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making > equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold. > > yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful metrics > > > Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the > reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to > replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul > becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market > pressure with speedtests show there is a problem. > > We need a marketing/lobby group. Not wispa or other individual industry > groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as > implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc. i don't know > how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing. > > > Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily > obvious > in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs > are performing well. > > We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing > worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so > the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable > with that. > > brandon > --0000000000003305f005f76236e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even at Friday evening Netflix time, there=E2=80= =99s hardly more than 25/5 Mbps consumed.
Also, the real improvements t= hat will be really felt by the people are on the bufferbloat front (enterpr= ise as well as residential)

If there=E2=80=99s jus= t single one talk that everyone should watch from that Understanding Latenc= y webinar series I have shared, it=E2=80=99s this one, with Gino Dion (Noki= a Bell Labs), Magnus Olden (Domos - Latency Management) and Angus Laurie-Pi= le (GameBench):=C2=A0https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMRmcWyIVXvg&t=3D1358s


<= div>even sub 5/1 Mbps =E2=80=9Cbroadband=E2=80=9D in Africa with bufferbloa= t fixed on as many hops along the internet journey from a data center to th= e customers mobile device (or with just LibreQoS middle box in the ISP=E2= =80=99s network) is feeling way better than 25Gbps XG-PON. The only time th= e XG-PON guy could really feel like a king of the world would be during his= speedtest.



All the best,

Frank
Fran= tisek (Frank) Borsik


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, T= elegram, WhatsApp:=C2=A0+421919416714=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(34,34,34)">iM= essage, mobile:=C2=A0+420775230885

Skype: ca= sioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On 21 March 2023 at 1:= 10:21 AM, Brandon Butterworth (bran= don@rd.bbc.co.uk) wrote:

On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, d= an via Starlink wrote:
I more or less agree with you Frantisek. Th= ere are throughput numbers
that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are ofte= n
met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
streams plus browsing and so forth

It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before
the next upgrade round.

This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK.

It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big
number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets
with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal
point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making
equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold.

yet no one talks about latency and packet los= s and other useful metrics

Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the
reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to
replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul
becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market
pressure with speedtests show there is a problem.

We need a marketing/lobby group. Not wispa o= r other individual industry
groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc. i don'= ;t know
how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing= .

Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily ob= vious
in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs
are performing well.

We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing
worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so
the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable
with that.

brandon
--0000000000003305f005f76236e6--