[Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Rich Brown]

I have made some tweaks to the bufferbloat.net site:

- Added OpenWrt One to the list of off-the-shelf routers. (I ordered mine today from AliExpress - it's due 19 Dec)
	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/

- Added Raspberry Pi4 to the "custom firmware" section
	- ibid

- Added/extended the Bufferbloat FAQs page 
	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/Bufferbloat_FAQs/

- I would appreciate comments on the FAQ page - I fear I let my snark get a little ahead of my good judgement

- Also note that the FAQ pages lists three good web-based speed/latency test pages: Speedtest.net, Cloudflare, and Waveform and the Crusader tester application for Windows, Mac, Linux.

Thanks!

Rich

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[David Collier-Brown]

I also recommend the con-call observer at 
https://test.vsee.com/network/index.html

It runs in real-time, and you can see things get bad, and people start 
to sound horrid.

--dave


On 12/4/24 11:16, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> I have made some tweaks to the bufferbloat.net site:
>
> - Added OpenWrt One to the list of off-the-shelf routers. (I ordered mine today from AliExpress - it's due 19 Dec)
> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
>
> - Added Raspberry Pi4 to the "custom firmware" section
> 	- ibid
>
> - Added/extended the Bufferbloat FAQs page
> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/Bufferbloat_FAQs/
>
> - I would appreciate comments on the FAQ page - I fear I let my snark get a little ahead of my good judgement
>
> - Also note that the FAQ pages lists three good web-based speed/latency test pages: Speedtest.net, Cloudflare, and Waveform and the Crusader tester application for Windows, Mac, Linux.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rich
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Rich,

On 4 December 2024 17:16:39 CET, Rich Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>I have made some tweaks to the bufferbloat.net site:
>
>- Added OpenWrt One to the list of off-the-shelf routers. (I ordered mine today from AliExpress - it's due 19 Dec)
>

[SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
>
>- Added Raspberry Pi4 to the "custom firmware" section
>	- ibid
>
>- Added/extended the Bufferbloat FAQs page 
>	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/Bufferbloat_FAQs/
>
>- I would appreciate comments on the FAQ page - I fear I let my snark get a little ahead of my good judgement

[SM] I like it... I wonder though whether the "and still you ended up reading this" argument should only be made once, maybe as a response to multiple questions?

>
>- Also note that the FAQ pages lists three good web-based speed/latency test pages: Speedtest.net, Cloudflare, and Waveform and the Crusader tester application for Windows, Mac, Linux.

[SM] Nitpick:
"If the test shows latency below 15-25 msec, it means that bufferbloat is under control."
Maybe clarify "latency increases under load below..."  we occasionally see people with idle delays >> 25ms performing these tests...?

>
>Thanks!
>
>Rich
>_______________________________________________
>Bloat mailing list
>Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Rich Brown]

Excellent comments, most appreciated.

> On Dec 4, 2024, at 1:00 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> On 4 December 2024 17:16:39 CET, Rich Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> I have made some tweaks to the bufferbloat.net site:
>> 
>> - Added OpenWrt One to the list of off-the-shelf routers. (I ordered mine today from AliExpress - it's due 19 Dec)
>> 
> 
> [SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
>> 
>> - Added Raspberry Pi4 to the "custom firmware" section
>> 	- ibid
>> 
>> - Added/extended the Bufferbloat FAQs page 
>> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/Bufferbloat_FAQs/
>> 
>> - I would appreciate comments on the FAQ page - I fear I let my snark get a little ahead of my good judgement
> 
> [SM] I like it... I wonder though whether the "and still you ended up reading this" argument should only be made once, maybe as a response to multiple questions?
> 
>> 
>> - Also note that the FAQ pages lists three good web-based speed/latency test pages: Speedtest.net, Cloudflare, and Waveform and the Crusader tester application for Windows, Mac, Linux.
> 
> [SM] Nitpick:
> "If the test shows latency below 15-25 msec, it means that bufferbloat is under control."
> Maybe clarify "latency increases under load below..."  we occasionally see people with idle delays >> 25ms performing these tests...?
> 
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Rich
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Yay, I applaud you for adding search button, for sure.

Thanks for all the changes, Rich.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 8:18 PM Rich Brown via Bloat <
bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Excellent comments, most appreciated.
>
> > On Dec 4, 2024, at 1:00 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > On 4 December 2024 17:16:39 CET, Rich Brown via Bloat <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> I have made some tweaks to the bufferbloat.net site:
> >>
> >> - Added OpenWrt One to the list of off-the-shelf routers. (I ordered
> mine today from AliExpress - it's due 19 Dec)
> >>
> >
> > [SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but
> will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely
> fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
> >
> https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
> >>
> >> - Added Raspberry Pi4 to the "custom firmware" section
> >>      - ibid
> >>
> >> - Added/extended the Bufferbloat FAQs page
> >>      https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/Bufferbloat_FAQs/
> >>
> >> - I would appreciate comments on the FAQ page - I fear I let my snark
> get a little ahead of my good judgement
> >
> > [SM] I like it... I wonder though whether the "and still you ended up
> reading this" argument should only be made once, maybe as a response to
> multiple questions?
> >
> >>
> >> - Also note that the FAQ pages lists three good web-based speed/latency
> test pages: Speedtest.net, Cloudflare, and Waveform and the Crusader tester
> application for Windows, Mac, Linux.
> >
> > [SM] Nitpick:
> > "If the test shows latency below 15-25 msec, it means that bufferbloat
> is under control."
> > Maybe clarify "latency increases under load below..."  we occasionally
> see people with idle delays >> 25ms performing these tests...?
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Rich
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

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Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Rich Brown]

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> On Dec 4, 2024, at 2:21 PM, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yay, I applaud you for adding search button, for sure.

Not me... Thanks go to Toke!

And it is a terrific improvement...

Rich

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Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Thanks, Toke! I was asking for it for quite some time :)

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 9:15 PM Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 4, 2024, at 2:21 PM, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yay, I applaud you for adding search button, for sure.
>
>
> Not me... Thanks go to Toke!
>
> And it is a terrific improvement...
>
> Rich
>

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Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> writes:

> Thanks, Toke! I was asking for it for quite some time :)

You're welcome! Turned out to be surprisingly easy to do, actually -
thanks to https://pagefind.app/ :)

-Toke

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Lovely. Btw, your https://bufferbloat-and-beyond.net will be heading to
Malawi, soon. 10 of them, for starters. Amazing job you guys are doing. It
will go to our customer, ISP, and he will distribute it to his competitors
and/or to the universities. Hope to get there more of it, once we it will
be proven that the local post will deliver :)

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 10:46 AM Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@toke.dk> wrote:

> Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Thanks, Toke! I was asking for it for quite some time :)
>
> You're welcome! Turned out to be surprisingly easy to do, actually -
> thanks to https://pagefind.app/ :)
>
> -Toke
>

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Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Toke Høiland-Jørgensen]

Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> writes:

> Lovely. Btw, your https://bufferbloat-and-beyond.net will be heading to
> Malawi, soon. 10 of them, for starters. Amazing job you guys are doing. It
> will go to our customer, ISP, and he will distribute it to his competitors
> and/or to the universities. Hope to get there more of it, once we it will
> be proven that the local post will deliver :)

Very cool! So much fun seeing them go around the world :)

-Toke

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Mine just arrived! Thanks, Toke!



All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 at 1:03 PM, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@toke.dk> wrote:

> Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Lovely. Btw, your https://bufferbloat-and-beyond.net will be heading to
> > Malawi, soon. 10 of them, for starters. Amazing job you guys are doing.
> It
> > will go to our customer, ISP, and he will distribute it to his
> competitors
> > and/or to the universities. Hope to get there more of it, once we it will
> > be proven that the local post will deliver :)
>
> Very cool! So much fun seeing them go around the world :)
>
> -Toke
>

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Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[David Lang]

Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:

> Hi Rich,
>
> On 4 December 2024 17:16:39 CET, Rich Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> I have made some tweaks to the bufferbloat.net site:
>>
>> - Added OpenWrt One to the list of off-the-shelf routers. (I ordered mine today from AliExpress - it's due 19 Dec)
>>
>
> [SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/

I don't think that will be as much of a problem as you think, most people are 
all-wireless in their houses nowdays, and small, programmable switches are 
pretty cheap if you need them.

David Lang

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[jf]

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I see it as a good thing, as it might promote better placement for WiFi coverage, vs where a tangle of wires is tolerated. The POE option further enhances that angle.

An unmanaged POE switch is affordable; if one is technical, then a managed one is not much more.

As a data point, my five-port home router has only two in use: the WAN port, and one LAN/VLAN port connected to the main household managed switch.

> On Dec 4, 2024, at 2:22 PM, David Lang via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> [SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
>> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
> 
> I don't think that will be as much of a problem as you think, most people are all-wireless in their houses nowdays, and small, programmable switches are pretty cheap if you need them.


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Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1299 bytes --]

jf@jonathanfoulkes.com wrote:

> I see it as a good thing, as it might promote better placement for WiFi coverage, vs where a tangle of wires is tolerated. The POE option further enhances that angle.
>
> An unmanaged POE switch is affordable; if one is technical, then a managed one is not much more.


8 port managed switch, list price $50, on sale for $30 (5 port is on sale for 
$18)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K4DS5KU?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

> As a data point, my five-port home router has only two in use: the WAN port, and one LAN/VLAN port connected to the main household managed switch.

yep, people who do wires usually aren't satisfied with the switch in the AP.

David Lang

>> On Dec 4, 2024, at 2:22 PM, David Lang via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
>>> 	https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
>>
>> I don't think that will be as much of a problem as you think, most people are all-wireless in their houses nowdays, and small, programmable switches are pretty cheap if you need them.
>
>

Re: [Bloat] Updates to bufferbloat.net site

[Sebastian Moeller]

Not so sure...

The missing switch port was the single biggest issue discussed on the OpenWrt forum thread about the One... (followed by "why different capacities for the two ethernet ports" and "no modem"). My understanding is that typical users expect a few lan ports, but I can not say how many/few would be happy without... With OpenWrt one will need a SIP/VoIP base station so there goes one lan port right there... But I will shut up now, I wait with further opinions until I have mine delivered and tested ;)



> On 4. Dec 2024, at 20:58, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> 
> jf@jonathanfoulkes.com wrote:
> 
>> I see it as a good thing, as it might promote better placement for WiFi coverage, vs where a tangle of wires is tolerated. The POE option further enhances that angle.
>> 
>> An unmanaged POE switch is affordable; if one is technical, then a managed one is not much more.
> 
> 
> 8 port managed switch, list price $50, on sale for $30 (5 port is on sale for $18)
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K4DS5KU?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1
> 
>> As a data point, my five-port home router has only two in use: the WAN port, and one LAN/VLAN port connected to the main household managed switch.

My primary router lives in the living room (for the desired WiFi coverage there) out of its 5 LAN ports, 4 are used, and only one of those is to the bigger managed POE switch.
But I will certainly not pretend that this is typical usage, not even for a family of five...

> yep, people who do wires usually aren't satisfied with the switch in the AP.

> David Lang
> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2024, at 2:22 PM, David Lang via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [SM] Ordered One as well... that said, this is a decent AP package, but will likely not be a general all-in-one router (lack of a modem is likely fine, lack of switch ports less so), especially given the price...
>>>> https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/
>>> 
>>> I don't think that will be as much of a problem as you think, most people are all-wireless in their houses nowdays, and small, programmable switches are pretty cheap if you need them.
>>