From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C223B3CB37 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id y127so1453363yby.8 for ; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:46:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=+wyi1qVfcb8BsYh+GlH2/YkOfLxRC10bQo0R4Nm24DQ=; b=I1SLQQ8M92AN1PkqE/Pvksj9yLdHkIBaeuClXoSVjau/o/DXbl7AlmgzjTxXsfhFE0 Ewi9tKOZhS0uN4nN95Cv2c+umVvb+g08GrBOHndMRP96xpv9e/FNGa83zBJ5+eUCGaf0 GSPsCx1DqayRqhEQYdaHFcToe43yXJbVles8hYp9bq1dZG9enkLQ6XbJtYFTZdNxJnNB 2nZ+PIfpvFyLudZdQcEule0n1/GUybnfEJEl7as1JGSz0xXXpLqTC71sbWUiZUYXjRhz xod02G15raacaWPP1x6LYzXlEVdBAxUVHFFlFXhD+h40f7ox+zWHrLlzqKgtZPPg2jGb wSXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=+wyi1qVfcb8BsYh+GlH2/YkOfLxRC10bQo0R4Nm24DQ=; b=X3Z49+lD8OFFc4GTRiaZTrKI+M2/FGLpHHZLawNoCYN+asHHQZYR/sjiXTFeGKMdAR 9+MyjgTjK+V/zjkzMZLlY6+U4Kc9nKfdmpvbbtAzdPNPkGeMYfKlAtvts+EcJhskud7h 6MSUwUOvc3d6iIoWPMu+jA68N0s4tVb65qdNB00pHxmT1uhluGmNhog05u8Syj8XOGjo qM4tZ4IHt+q9jVWstrIC4U5NBJ9IKeHc2swUTL7YogF5AHHzJfNb5udq8vG1Eu+ULH3U Vw1WIvIhND+z2E5JAsijy5IcFlG8Ol5vpWPfUEMmYlIWxKcDmF6CMJe+L5hiFDqWiYFQ AYqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo3mPJhJLmr+BOSQydOeUKI5WWh8G9nA3vj6x6hImLY3TzSf5LTm ky7OpRx5fyuZVvWl+Ss4NkUlJE/z0wEeLzbv0K8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4VfMmsE81/D5b2UZrPnshfe0La6Xzc4TPXoNwmZmVWZqGFpWCEts/LLAWhzeyive15vvkavm21w9w5+UpROr0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:110a:b0:67b:5d4a:2012 with SMTP id o10-20020a056902110a00b0067b5d4a2012mr3491431ybu.435.1659656776008; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:46:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220804162440.57fd5201@hermes.local> In-Reply-To: <20220804162440.57fd5201@hermes.local> From: Daniel Sterling Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:46:04 -0400 Message-ID: To: Stephen Hemminger Cc: Jonathan Morton via Bloat , Jonathan Morton , =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Ivar_Teigen?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] Researchers discover major roadblock in alleviating network congestion X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 23:46:16 -0000 "Flow control power is non-decentralizable" is from -- 1981? So we've known for 40 years that TCP streams won't play nicely with each other unless you shape them at the slower endpoint-- am I understanding that correctly? But we keep trying anyway? :) On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 7:24 PM Stephen Hemminger via Bloat wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Aug 2022 00:45:12 +0300 > Jonathan Morton via Bloat wrote: > > > > On 4 Aug, 2022, at 3:21 pm, Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen via Bloat wrote: > > > > > > Main take-away (as I understand it) is something like "In real-world = networks, jitter adds noise to the end-to-end delay such that any algorithm= trying to infer congestion from end-to-end delay measurements will occasio= nally get it wrong and this can lead to starvation". Seems related to Jaffe= 's work on network power (titled "Flow control power is non-decentralizable= "). > > > > Hasn't this been known for many years, as a consequence of experience w= ith TCP Vegas? > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > It seems like BBR developers thought they could do better. Unfortunately,= papers with negative > results never seem to get written or published ;-( > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat