From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA7113B2A2 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id o141so10190042lff.1 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:05:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tn8L6NV3xBdug87IFuwwEzcWsTFTuexPa7xswudphWQ=; b=j+MyW/Us/jLeZVIHfhLiyWO75Ptro5agCj/Rkn+1vYMMEnKRKXEqiRGQhZ7vQ0RTfX lBYKpPRX4tireipJW+ICwb2PyU70xvAI3HBHih/EWEbMxndJSBTcpkxfGAKF5zjQS70N 2G6hsph2lu9g36vX1zmm0HEnAi9gJZqXJiW6Nztflq8CkCJzQZyrYtK3Wra50or3bfrC SMIxcPhiqq5nYP5wA73v/FQxZ268Tkjf0IzezQtpLdvi5QmrAF0eomn20HdLiPDpmOC8 R7maa6q963xD5vSS2bLEHv88sI9lVa2pAdTJLi3kXPqjcm9iviGnmpE5G3guS8z5Y2ni CG2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tn8L6NV3xBdug87IFuwwEzcWsTFTuexPa7xswudphWQ=; b=kxL8TNrK+G03w/rvP2uwut1oajIL4VoKI3FmNMnz4SzcmtVGHQ2hIRHiqTkP+CH//z L3wu/AIa8uJ+3fanXWxPubt2WQo2RpDaEVz4fEZJ0pYjKWuTQoYfG5Lwqhlr0Qg8zYej L5xPDh2RCpbB3c01a8x7jIrcQh/Mp5KM5+pnqFpMMssbwZb3sdl7ELJI29bRA81xYBIo hvzzYCr/U8J9W+ZWa820sHsmwNOTEOr1q1E0aGfajpNqW7oKke8UHwRngqgv88FrLixR sY/dCyTDRYYrEARIEZiKLLpHPY1iTjGXtv/gkL8bcyff9vik2YJll4regSz5qMxMzCsK YtoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC00ZlcEfFUAWdPQ+L0IlZpps4wXvaFtFVjgXrRzdz+mqH3LzN7WmHtDx+93nPLFYzjTPfTi08C9z5/yifg== X-Received: by 10.46.0.137 with SMTP id e9mr1824301lji.11.1479924328521; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.16.85 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:05:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8d72490d-551a-c58f-991a-1750e9af8df9@gmail.com> <2e7e4dbe-5a95-93f3-89de-447f6bf970f9@gmail.com> From: Benjamin Cronce Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:05:27 -0600 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Noah Causin , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142b3d0e565f60541fbbb48 Subject: Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:05:30 -0000 --001a1142b3d0e565f60541fbbb48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:56 AM, David Lang wrote: > that doesn't even do 5GHz, so your wifi performance will be cripped by > interference and the lack of available bandwidth. > > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Noah Causin wrote: > > There is a company called Netduma which sells a product called the Netduma >> R1 Router. It's main feature is reducing lag. It does this through QOS >> and GEO-IP Filtering. (Limiting available servers to your local region = >> reduced RTT) >> >> It seems relatively popular in the gaming world, especially console. >> >> It is based on OpenWRT Chaos Calmer: https://netduma.com/opensource/ >> >> It has an advanced QOS system that already uses FQ_Codel. >> >> Here are the hardware specs: >> >> https://netduma.com/features/hardware/ >> >> I assume it has an ath9k. >> >> Maybe they could implement the ath9k fq_codel and airtime patches. >> >> The user base that buys this product seems like they would be more >> familiar with setting up routers than the average person. >> >> On 11/23/2016 12:31 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Benjamin Cronce wrote: >>> >>> If there is a simple affordable solution, say Open/DD-WRT distro based >>>> bridge that all you do is configure your up/down bandwidth and it applies >>>> Codel/fq-Codel/Cake, then all you need to do is drive up awareness. A good >>>> channel for awareness would be getting in contact with popular Twitch or >>>> YouTube gaming streamers. But I wouldn't put much effort into driving up >>>> awareness until there is a device that people can easily acquire, use, and >>>> afford. At first I was thinking of telling people to use *-WRT supporting >>>> routers, but changing the firmware on your router requires too much >>>> research, and many people care about bleeding edge features. You need >>>> something that works in tangent with whatever they are using. >>>> >>> >>> If Comcast sells you 100/20 (I have no idea if this is a thing), you set >>> your upstream on this box to 18 meg fq_codel, and then Comcast >>> oversubscribes you so you only get 15 meg up part of the time, then you're >>> still bloated by the modem. This is not a solution. >>> >>> I don't think "buy $thing, install *WRT on it, configure it like this" >>> is above most gamers, but I'm afraid we don't even have a working solution >>> for someone with that kind of skillset. >>> >> I would be curious to know what the 80/20 rule is. Can we reach it with what I described? The other way to handle the situation you mentioned is to tell the end users they can trade more bandwidth for a less likely chance of having high latency, depending on the stability of their ISP. There is also the strange issue of crazy high bursts from video streaming services. I know Netflix is working on the packet-pacing problem with FreeBSD, but I've done packet-dumps from several streaming providers and the issue seems to be with TCP with transient activity and data transfers that with in the TCP transmit window. A 5Mb/s average really turns into a 40Gb/s burst of 256KiB of data 3 times a second. Since the buffers are large, they don't drop anything. The bigger issue is the end-user sees an "average" ping that is low, but they get constant transient oddities while gaming and can't figure out why someone streaming 5Mb/s is hosing their 100Mb connection. Most people only have a 1Gb network link, so a 40Gb burst won't get through anyway, but they will see a 1Gb burst dragged out 40x longer, giving a bridging device time to drop a packet or two and signal TCP to back-off. Looking at my WAN port, I actually see back-to-back packets at 1Gb line-rate from Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, and Twitch for long lived connections that have periodic activity. > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --001a1142b3d0e565f60541fbbb48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:56 AM, David Lang <david@lang.hm>= wrote:
that doesn'= ;t even do 5GHz, so your wifi performance will be cripped by interference a= nd the lack of available bandwidth.


On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Noah Causin wrote:

There is a company called Netduma which sells a product called the Netduma = R1 Router.=C2=A0 It's main feature is reducing lag.=C2=A0 It does this = through QOS and GEO-IP Filtering.=C2=A0 (Limiting available servers to your= local region =3D reduced RTT)

It seems relatively popular in the gaming world, especially console.

It is based on OpenWRT Chaos Calmer: https://netduma.com/opensource/

It has an advanced QOS system that already uses FQ_Codel.

Here are the hardware specs:

https://netduma.com/features/hardware/

I assume it has an ath9k.

Maybe they could implement the ath9k fq_codel and airtime patches.

The user base that buys this product seems like they would be more familiar= with setting up routers than the average person.

On 11/23/2016 12:31 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Benjamin Cronce wrote:

If there is a simple affordable solution, say Open/DD-WRT distro based brid= ge that all you do is configure your up/down bandwidth and it applies Codel= /fq-Codel/Cake, then all you need to do is drive up awareness. A good chann= el for awareness would be getting in contact with popular Twitch or YouTube= gaming streamers. But I wouldn't put much effort into driving up aware= ness until there is a device that people can easily acquire, use, and affor= d. At first I was thinking of telling people to use *-WRT supporting router= s, but changing the firmware on your router requires too much research, and= many people care about bleeding edge features. You need something that wor= ks in tangent with whatever they are using.

If Comcast sells you 100/20 (I have no idea if this is a thing), you set yo= ur upstream on this box to 18 meg fq_codel, and then Comcast oversubscribes= you so you only get 15 meg up part of the time, then you're still bloa= ted by the modem. This is not a solution.

I don't think "buy $thing, install *WRT on it, configure it like t= his" is above most gamers, but I'm afraid we don't even have a= working solution for someone with that kind of skillset.
<= /blockquote>

I would be curious= to know what the 80/20 rule is. Can we reach it with what I described? The= other way to handle the situation you mentioned is to tell the end users t= hey can trade more bandwidth for a less likely chance of having high latenc= y, depending on the stability of their ISP.

There = is also the strange issue of crazy high bursts from video streaming service= s. I know Netflix is working on the packet-pacing problem with FreeBSD, but= I've done packet-dumps from several streaming providers and the issue = seems to be with TCP with transient activity and data transfers that with i= n the TCP transmit window. A 5Mb/s average really turns into a 40Gb/s burst= of 256KiB of data 3 times a second. Since the buffers are large, they don&= #39;t drop anything. The bigger issue is the end-user sees an "average= " ping that is low, but they get constant transient oddities while gam= ing and can't figure out why someone streaming 5Mb/s is hosing their 10= 0Mb connection.

Most people only have a 1Gb networ= k link, so a 40Gb burst won't get through anyway, but they will see a 1= Gb burst dragged out 40x longer, giving a bridging device time to drop a pa= cket or two and signal TCP to back-off. Looking at my WAN port, I actually = see back-to-back packets at 1Gb line-rate from Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, and = Twitch for long lived connections that have periodic activity.


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Bloat mailing list
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