From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vc0-x229.google.com (mail-vc0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABF7E21F430; Fri, 20 Feb 2015 00:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id kv19so3034760vcb.0; Fri, 20 Feb 2015 00:47:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=hX6kAgPApAosaaKsvXJtic4shLStZHKODnGhUc8zVcU=; b=LxQMjj04KUm5kQfG5kjiLn38cc/AB8BRdoCh9kWJ5C82llnLZ/wOFYQCW6qcAGF64F 4niZc1tzA6qDGEzpQp+w4DA3NcraULaF6JWPq7KCh74EHsMbBEH/TDkbRuKVWV05Mo55 Aj3BiyMWJQwKmgaTdJTGr2bPmzxP8v9X2/ILNCSrCKuGRWg0kFSUN/2OH4jYmcwdialn +yXtKT8xtfrtMezdyILnuj0I8XCwcF1YdSCNLOOBCqH1DWZAnHz90kSY2n1gFOPJGDT5 mK1EdhuIyymOfZYDG2r7m9qSwC/bXmjg2alQhVG5U/k/XEfmg1GkHrxl33GQTeJlxamo +j7Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.181.33 with SMTP id dt1mr5759879vdc.42.1424422073053; Fri, 20 Feb 2015 00:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.24.79 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Feb 2015 00:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.24.79 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Feb 2015 00:47:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 10:47:52 +0200 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Morton To: Aaron Wood Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec548a2f1acb754050f811b06 Cc: cerowrt-devel , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] Two d-link products tested for bloat... X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:48:23 -0000 --bcaec548a2f1acb754050f811b06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Out of curiosity, perhaps you could talk to A&A about their FireBrick router. They make a big point of having written the firmware for it themselves, and they might be more interested in having researchers poke at it in interesting ways than the average big name. A&A are an ISP, not a hardware manufacturer by trade. Meanwhile, I suspect the ultimate hardware vendors don't care because their customers, the big brands, don't care. They in turn don't care because neither ISPs nor consumers care (on average). A coherent, magazine style review system with specific areas given star ratings might have a chance of fixing that, if it becomes visible enough. I'm not sure that a rant blog would gain the same sort of traction. Some guidance can be gained from the business of reviewing other computer hardware. Power supplies are generally, at their core, one of a few standard designs made by one of a couple of big subcontractors. The quality of the components used to implement that design, and ancillary hardware such as heatsinks and cabling, are what distinguish them in the marketplace. Likewise motherboards are all built around a standard CPU socket, chipset and form factor, but the manufacturers find lots of little ways to distinguish themselves on razor thin margins; likewise graphics cards. Laptops are usually badly designed in at least one stupid way despite the best efforts of reviewers, but thanks to them it is now possible to sort through the general mess and find one that doesn't completely suck at a reasonable price. As for the rating system itself: - the Communications Black Hole, for when we can't get it to work at all. Maybe we can shrink a screen grab from Interstellar for the job. - the Tin Cans & String, for when it passes packets okay (out of the box) but is horrible in every other important respect. - the Carrier Pigeon. Bonus points if we can show it defecating on the message (or the handler's wrist). - the Telegraph Pole (or Morse Code Key). Maybe put the Titanic in the background just to remind people how hard they are failing. - the Dial-Up Modem. Perhaps products which become reliable and useful if the user installs OpenWRT should get at least this rating. - the Silver RJ45, for products which contrive to be overall competent in all important respects. - the Golden Fibre, for the very best, most outstanding examples of best practice, without any significant faults at all. Bonus Pink Floyd reference. I've been toying with the idea of putting up a website on a completely different subject, but which might have similar structure. Being able to use the same infrastructure for two different sites might spread the costs in an interesting way... - Jonathan Morton --bcaec548a2f1acb754050f811b06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Out of curiosity, perhaps you could talk to A&A about th= eir FireBrick router. They make a big point of having written the firmware = for it themselves, and they might be more interested in having researchers = poke at it in interesting ways than the average big name.=C2=A0 A&A are= an ISP, not a hardware manufacturer by trade.

Meanwhile, I suspect the ultimate hardware vendors don't= care because their customers, the big brands, don't care. They in turn= don't care because neither ISPs nor consumers care (on average). A coh= erent, magazine style review system with specific areas given star ratings = might have a chance of fixing that, if it becomes visible enough. I'm n= ot sure that a rant blog would gain the same sort of traction.

Some guidance can be gained from the business of reviewing o= ther computer hardware. Power supplies are generally, at their core, one of= a few standard designs made by one of a couple of big subcontractors. The = quality of the components used to implement that design, and ancillary hard= ware such as heatsinks and cabling, are what distinguish them in the market= place. Likewise motherboards are all built around a standard CPU socket, ch= ipset and form factor, but the manufacturers find lots of little ways to di= stinguish themselves on razor thin margins; likewise graphics cards. Laptop= s are usually badly designed in at least one stupid way despite the best ef= forts of reviewers, but thanks to them it is now possible to sort through t= he general mess and find one that doesn't completely suck at a reasonab= le price.

As for the rating system itself:

- the Communications Black Hole, for when we can't get i= t to work at all. Maybe we can shrink a screen grab from Interstellar for t= he job.

- the Tin Cans & String, for when it passes packets okay= (out of the box) but is horrible in every other important respect.

- the Carrier Pigeon. Bonus points if we can show it defecat= ing on the message (or the handler's wrist).

- the Telegraph Pole (or Morse Code Key). Maybe put the Tita= nic in the background just to remind people how hard they are failing.

- the Dial-Up Modem. Perhaps products which become reliable = and useful if the user installs OpenWRT should get at least this rating.

- the Silver RJ45, for products which contrive to be overall= competent in all important respects.

- the Golden Fibre, for the very best, most outstanding exam= ples of best practice, without any significant faults at all. Bonus Pink Fl= oyd reference.

I've been toying with the idea of putting up a website o= n a completely different subject, but which might have similar structure. B= eing able to use the same infrastructure for two different sites might spre= ad the costs in an interesting way...

- Jonathan Morton

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