[Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Dave Taht]

I figure everyone has already seen this:

http://burntchrome.blogspot.com/2014/05/fixing-bufferbloat-on-comcasts-blast.html

But this is the best we can do. Above 50mbit, cero's current hardware
(cpu designed in 1989)
peaks out. We've done some testing on the slightly higher end
edgerouter lite, and it
can't keep up, either, above about 70mbit. The edgerouter pro does
considerably better but costs considerably more. ivy bridge x86 boxes
"just work" up to well past 300mbits...

As cerowrt 3.10 is basically baked, it's time (finally!) to find a new
chipset that everyone can work with, and move on to higher gateway
bandwidths, and 802.11ac.

For 2+ years now, we've been looking for better hardware than this...
and I'd like to at
least find something sooner that could run the SQM system at 105Mbit...

I know we could just switch future development to intel hardware, and
there are some promising arm based designs now out, and there have
been a few suggestions here and on cerowrt-devel...

At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
interested in helping write that?

-- 
Dave Täht

Re: [Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Eric S. Raymond]

Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>:
> At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
> and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
> project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
> to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
> interested in helping write that?

I can do critical reader and style editor.  If other people generate
a content-complete rough draft I can beat it into something slick and
persuasive.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Re: [Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Dave Taht]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>:
>> At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
>> and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
>> project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
>> to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
>> interested in helping write that?
>
> I can do critical reader and style editor.  If other people generate
> a content-complete rough draft I can beat it into something slick and
> persuasive.

Eric: That would be a big help, TIA!

one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/

but it would make more sense to port the needed software (bql,
fq_codel, sqm) over
to it first and do some benchmarking before committing to using it and
getting it manufactured in more volume.

> --
>                 <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>



-- 
Dave Täht

NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article

Re: [Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Jonathan Morton]

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> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/

That does look promising. The existing software is OpenWRT, so porting
CeroWRT shouldn't be difficult.

The P2020 CPU is a PowerPC Book E type - basically a 603e with the FPU
ripped out, then turned into an SoC. It should have loads of performance,
and enough I/O to feed those GigE ports effectively.

The only real software concern should be that it's big-endian, but since I
already use an old PowerBook as a firewall, that's unlikely to be a big
hurdle. Fq_codel works well on it.

- Jonathan Morton

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Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[David P. Reed]

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Anybody got a TI connection? The wandboard is nice based on I.MX6 but it is not ideal for a router.

On Aug 15, 2014, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
>> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
>
>That does look promising. The existing software is OpenWRT, so porting
>CeroWRT shouldn't be difficult.
>
>The P2020 CPU is a PowerPC Book E type - basically a 603e with the FPU
>ripped out, then turned into an SoC. It should have loads of
>performance,
>and enough I/O to feed those GigE ports effectively.
>
>The only real software concern should be that it's big-endian, but
>since I
>already use an old PowerBook as a firewall, that's unlikely to be a big
>hurdle. Fq_codel works well on it.
>
>- Jonathan Morton
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel

-- Sent from my Android device with K-@ Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Bloat] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Michael Richardson]

Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/

    > That does look promising. The existing software is OpenWRT, so porting
    > CeroWRT shouldn't be difficult.

I agree.
And nic.cz are good people to work with.   And IETF93 is in Prague next
summer too...

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [

Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[dpreed]

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[ http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7950-rangeley-network-communication-board/ ]( http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7950-rangeley-network-communication-board/ ) looks intriguing.
 
Probably a bit pricey, but has lots of advantages.  There's another smaller one that might do:
 
[ http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7935/ ]( http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7935/ )
 
both are intel based, but for Linux that means that you don't have to deal with all the issues of non-intel instruction sets.


On Friday, August 15, 2014 5:02pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:



> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> > Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>:
> >> At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
> >> and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
> >> project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
> >> to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
> >> interested in helping write that?
> >
> > I can do critical reader and style editor. If other people generate
> > a content-complete rough draft I can beat it into something slick and
> > persuasive.
> 
> Eric: That would be a big help, TIA!
> 
> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
> 
> but it would make more sense to port the needed software (bql,
> fq_codel, sqm) over
> to it first and do some benchmarking before committing to using it and
> getting it manufactured in more volume.
> 
> > --
> > <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S.
> Raymond</a>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Dave Täht
> 
> NSFW:
> https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> 

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Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Frank Carmickle]

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On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:13 PM, dpreed@reed.com wrote:

> http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7950-rangeley-network-communication-board/ looks intriguing.

This, and others like it from Supermicro and Asrock, are what I am interested in.  I'm not so sure this is what Dave is looking for.  These are not sub $100 boards by any stretch.  I happen to like IPMI serial over LAN and don't really want to live without it.  I built a Habey fanless chassis and a Asrock board system with 16gb of RAm a few months ago.  The Habey fanless chassis is pretty nice except that it smelled awful.  They have an external inline power brick with a barrel connector that is converted to atx by a small board in the chassis.  This way I also get to run Debian without worrying about filling up some small flash.

Dave, are you looking for something for the masses?


--FC



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Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 3:51 PM, Frank Carmickle <frank@carmickle.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:13 PM, dpreed@reed.com wrote:
>
> http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7950-rangeley-network-communication-board/
> looks intriguing.
>
>
> This, and others like it from Supermicro and Asrock, are what I am
> interested in.  I'm not so sure this is what Dave is looking for.  These are
> not sub $100 boards by any stretch.  I happen to like IPMI serial over LAN
> and don't really want to live without it.  I built a Habey fanless chassis
> and a Asrock board system with 16gb of RAm a few months ago.  The Habey
> fanless chassis is pretty nice except that it smelled awful.  They have an
> external inline power brick with a barrel connector that is converted to atx
> by a small board in the chassis.  This way I also get to run Debian without
> worrying about filling up some small flash.
>
> Dave, are you looking for something for the masses?

No, I'm looking for something to do further, open, effective, bleeding
edge and game changing research on... a project that will run for
another 3+ years...

...that eventually will be something for the masses.

Cost is not a huge object right now. Cheap in 3 years would be a good goal.

On the high end, for example, are things like netfpga, and lower cost
options like the parallella architecture.

http://netfpga.org/
http://www.parallella.org/

It does seem like better hardware offloads need to be developed to ensure that
rate scheduling, AQM, and fair queuing, can move into new hardware.

I agree with other folk on this thread that we are in a transition
period where the cost-effective chips have offloads that interfere
with further bufferbloat related research, even on the technologies
that are relatively open (ethernet, wifi).

This situation is far worse on access technologies such as 3g, and
lte, cable, and gpon, which are black boxes out of reach of open and
academic researchers.

About the only FTTH technology that is relatively accessible is single
mode fiber ethernet, and it appears to be uncommon except in
municipalities that have mandated ISP competition (for example:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/03/how-amsterdam-was-wired-for-open-access-fiber/
)

In the cases where we can make a difference, the only cpu technologies
that appear
capable of doing GigE and software rate limiting and codel seem to be
x86 based. (And only intel! even a amd box, recently benchmarked,
couldn't forward at > 700Mbit)

I even have doubts about the atom box mentioned earlier, the available
cache sizes are quite small, and ivy bridge based platforms seem
better, but only testing could tell.

Although I like the turrus project, I too am dubious about the future
for power pc in these marketplace.

I've had a chat with atheros about some of their new stuff, I'm not
sure what of that I can share here (yet). Will let you all know when I
can.

I think all options are open. I'd like to have a project that could
indeed be funded (for a change!) - AND make a difference - and be fun
and useful for everyone here and a variety of other research-y
projects like project bismark, the EFF work, commotion wireless, etc,
etc. An ideal project would be to produce an entirely open high speed
router that anyone could make.

Shorter term... it would be nice to find a board that "just worked"
well with the SQM system, up to 300mbit, however. That covers the
largest band of ISP deployments for the next several years.

And I, at least, have competing goals - there are the gateway problem,
and the DSLAM/CMTS/GPON head end problem... and then there's fixing
wifi, which is nearest and dearest to my heart.

At the moment I'm planning on switching to some x86 box to prototype
solutions for make-wifi-fast, (due to ease of debugging mostly,
availability of mini-pcie, also). 802.11ac is presently a mess...

So I appreciate the suggestions so far, keep them coming! All options
are on the table and what we'll congeal on or not congeal on is wildly
variable, but I would like to find a way focus enough folk on solving
any one problem to get decent results inside of a year.

Note: I am at sigcomm and linuxcon this week in chicago and my replies
will be sparse.

My morning's keynote at the congestion control workshop slides are up at:

http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/sigcomm2014.pdf

(Sadly, not recorded)




>
> --FC
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>



-- 
Dave Täht

NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article

Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Michael Richardson]

Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
    > In the cases where we can make a difference, the only cpu technologies
    > that appear
    > capable of doing GigE and software rate limiting and codel seem to be
    > x86 based. (And only intel! even a amd box, recently benchmarked,
    > couldn't forward at > 700Mbit)

Benchmarked how?
I would suspect that it's not CPU, but rather network/memory bottlenecks,
as well as L1/memory bottleneck.

A number of years ago there was
Combo6... https://www.liberouter.org/comboi-1g4-4-%C3%97-1ge/

This is *NOT* consumer grade, clearly, but maybe it would attract something.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [

Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Dave Taht]

On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 12:13 PM,  <dpreed@reed.com> wrote:
> http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7950-rangeley-network-communication-board/
> looks intriguing.

I have to say that looks very promising as a testbed vehicle. Perhaps
down the road a candidate for
a head-end solution... or a corporate edge gateway.

I also spoke to an intel rep at linuxcon
that mentioned a rangeley board with 10GigE capability onboard.

Have you contacted habeyusa?

>
>
> Probably a bit pricey, but has lots of advantages.  There's another smaller
> one that might do:
>
>
>
> http://www.habeyusa.com/products/fwmb-7935/

That also.
>
>
>
> both are intel based, but for Linux that means that you don't have to deal
> with all the issues of non-intel instruction sets.

Well, in both cases the boards lack a video interface so booting them
for the first time would be a pain.

see also:

http://www.lannerinc.com/products/x86-network-appliances/rackmount/fw-7573

Does anyone know of a good pcie 10gig capable fiber card (dual or
single port) and SFP+ single mode (20km) interface?


>
>
> On Friday, August 15, 2014 5:02pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
>> > Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>:
>> >> At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
>> >> and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
>> >> project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
>> >> to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
>> >> interested in helping write that?
>> >
>> > I can do critical reader and style editor. If other people generate
>> > a content-complete rough draft I can beat it into something slick and
>> > persuasive.
>>
>> Eric: That would be a big help, TIA!
>>
>> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
>>
>> but it would make more sense to port the needed software (bql,
>> fq_codel, sqm) over
>> to it first and do some benchmarking before committing to using it and
>> getting it manufactured in more volume.
>>
>> > --
>> > <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S.
>> Raymond</a>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Täht
>>
>> NSFW:
>>
>> https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>>



-- 
Dave Täht

NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article

Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Aaron Wood]

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http://www.gateworks.com/product/item/ventana-gw5310-network-processor

Out of price range in single units, but I don't know where the price breaks
kick in.  Dual-core 800MHz ARM should be plenty of power for the GigE ports.

I think to get any sort of platform like this by a major vendor, we're
looking at needing 10K quantities, which I just don't see happening,
without a really well-done kickstarter type campaign.

OTOH, a kickstarter might be a good way to get a largish group-buy together
for some of these more dev-minded platforms.

-Aaron


On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Wes Felter <wmf@felter.org> wrote:

> On 8/15/14, 4:02 PM, Dave Taht wrote:
>
>  one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
>>
>
> Huge kudos to the Turris project for designing a modern open router.
> But... Freescale is in the process of switching from PowerPC to ARM and
> other vendors are switching from MIPS to ARM. Maybe it's worth waiting a
> few months for ARM to save the trouble of switching again later.
>
> Many people here know this, but if you don't, a word of warning: These
> chips tend to have various accelerators that don't support CoDel. Turning
> off acceleration and using software AQM may reduce performance 10x compared
> to marketing numbers. If the marketing number is over 1 Gbps that may be
> fine, but as Dave said it's something that should be tested.
>
> Intel Avoton/Rangeley looks great but very expensive; boards are around
> $300 without radios, case or PSU.
>
> --
> Wes Felter
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

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Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Guillaume Fortaine]

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Hello,

Turris Lite describes itself as „Raspberry PI for networking“ :

https://lite.turris.cz/en/

*Features*

-open hardware designed for open software

-high power - dual core CPU capable of forwarding on gigabit speeds

-at least 4 LAN and 1 WAN gigabit ports

-OpenWrt based TurrisOS with automatic updates

-secure by default with advanced protection

-highly extensible and tweakable - miniPCIe, USB 3.0, SPI, I²C, UART, GPIO
-affordable pricing


Cordialement / Best Regards,

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> > Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>:
> >> At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
> >> and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
> >> project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
> >> to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
> >> interested in helping write that?
> >
> > I can do critical reader and style editor.  If other people generate
> > a content-complete rough draft I can beat it into something slick and
> > persuasive.
>
> Eric: That would be a big help, TIA!
>
> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
>
> but it would make more sense to port the needed software (bql,
> fq_codel, sqm) over
> to it first and do some benchmarking before committing to using it and
> getting it manufactured in more volume.
>
> > --
> >                 <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Täht
>
> NSFW:
> https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

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Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] still trying to find hardware for the next generation worth hacking on

[Sebastian Moeller]

Oh sweet.


On Mar 9, 2015, at 13:53 , Guillaume Fortaine <guillaume.fortaine@devopspace.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Turris Lite describes itself as „Raspberry PI for networking“ :
> 
> https://lite.turris.cz/en/
> 
> *Features*
> 
> -open hardware designed for open software
> 
> -high power - dual core CPU capable of forwarding on gigabit speeds
> 
> -at least 4 LAN and 1 WAN gigabit ports
> 
> -OpenWrt based TurrisOS with automatic updates
> 
> -secure by default with advanced protection
> 
> -highly extensible and tweakable - miniPCIe, USB 3.0, SPI, I²C, UART, GPIO
> -affordable pricing
> 

	This is a bit short on details, but let’s hope this is still based on the ppc soc they used for the turks router; the commercial router most similar to this the tp-link war 4900 is apparently capable of shaping at least up to 130 Mbps (at least I got a positive tester result for sqm-scripts on that device).


Best Regards
	Sebastian


> 
> Cordialement / Best Regards,
> 
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
> > Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>:
> >> At the moment, I'm thinking that instead of searching for a chipset,
> >> and board, that merely issuing an RFP with the requirements of this
> >> project and others associated with it, might find us a vendor willing
> >> to help, with something new coming off the line... would anyone be
> >> interested in helping write that?
> >
> > I can do critical reader and style editor.  If other people generate
> > a content-complete rough draft I can beat it into something slick and
> > persuasive.
> 
> Eric: That would be a big help, TIA!
> 
> one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
> 
> but it would make more sense to port the needed software (bql,
> fq_codel, sqm) over
> to it first and do some benchmarking before committing to using it and
> getting it manufactured in more volume.
> 
> > --
> >                 <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Dave Täht
> 
> NSFW: https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel