From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com (mail-yw0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D020F3CB38 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 05:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id y187so6435046ywd.12 for ; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:27:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aenertia.net; s=dkimaenertianet; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xr4dg0zb27k5DKXsIXSPYR/QpMhZKjzf2Jb1VhApvz0=; b=SsLDhNTyzBi1WKHHXHo7+XI66asRKHPBSkOzP0XeTIlOwWFdb0CFxWsUpdWQIf8fOP 1fcVT1um7EZeB+msdrbqMkaoLIMGAvpP75SxiLS+5xkiwBxD1O36f9UHFLqF9O8Zyt8q 89gD2JR9Kei29YMepb4zuaAJSUOIwDhIMPcpo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xr4dg0zb27k5DKXsIXSPYR/QpMhZKjzf2Jb1VhApvz0=; b=G2OFUY87FwgE4euuLwfJuA2QN+E0PzDg626Y1tM3QNb1msGgAVslZvBHtvqhK2JO3C Eeqj8ARvbfh3Du6GOc6kIDmzu+h50apyjthHHpPsBX7/fFhMvhK0j8Ji6N/QXDGi6t2K Y8ec0ukJyg32ptEAkm8t9V3GaWfDcwXAFgIXw3Ebksd+JQhUmMUL17zWIHnnGzekdszH SgglrF768p+jfnLyDwBI4WlzGJCM0E/pLqKOHOO91WFErnhyCX/4DWWv08qUkZZMG8+0 L9C9P45zr80DoULwFB1kLrAT0UzeamHcnvZkTkYlaBN+Q+8M8fZ9vlgYPtC7+R3qld/t axCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7S10kil7S6V2NNq4cLRLd/w8kodSWYxXi7hA2jpVAlzjkq1Xfd B3arh2BwM0BL6IIGydbrfhNHR9FA5cz6osXvEWAQ0A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYN20XIxvkHa+4ia6NURMotUzcLS1d4bbIJJqVFrMhtTnuD2yprjZJo/ag6Wa66/hPAee4B4Wy+BGuh2zaEyzY= X-Received: by 10.129.115.135 with SMTP id o129mr9278897ywc.109.1512383260014; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:27:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: aenertia@aenertia.net Received: by 10.37.173.2 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 02:27:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92906bd8-7bad-945d-83c8-a2f9598aac2c@lackof.org> <87bmjff7l6.fsf_-_@nemesis.taht.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 23:27:19 +1300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VdVYh9stEX3FHRPryhmOvckXoHU Message-ID: To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Dave Taht , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] DC behaviors today X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:27:40 -0000 How to deliver a switch, when the wiring and port standard isn't actually workable? 10GBase-T is out of Voltage Spec with SFP+ ; you can get copper SFP+ but they are out of spec... 10GbaseT doesn't really work over Cat5e more than a couple of meters (if you are lucky) and even Cat6 is only rated at 30M... there is a reason no-one is producing Home Copper switches and it's not just the NIC Silicon cost (that was a factor until Recently obviously, but only part of the equation). On the flip side: Right now I am typing this via a 40gbit network, comprised of the cheap and readily available Tb3 port - it's daisy chained and limited to 6 ports, but right now it's easily the cheapest and most effective port. Pitty that the fabled optical tb3 cables are damn expensive... so you're limited to daisy-chains of 2m. They seem to have screwed the pooch on the USB-C network standard quite badly - which looked so promising, so for the moment Tb3 it is for me at least. On 4 December 2017 at 23:18, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling wrote: > >> I'm not going to pretend that 1Gig isn't enough for most people. But I >> refuse to believe it's the networks equivalent of a 10A power (20A >> depending on where you live in the world) AC residential phase >> distribution circuit. > > > That's a good analogy. I actually believe it is, at least for the near 5-= 10 > years. > >> This isn't a question about what people need, it's more about what the >> market can deliver. 10GPON (GPON-X) and others now make it a viable >> service that can and is being deployed in residential and commercial >> access networks. > > > Well, you're sharing that bw with everybody else on that splitter. Sounds= to > me that the service being delivered over that would instead be in the 2-3 > gigabit/s range for the individual subscriber (this is what I typically s= ee > on equivalent shared mediums, that the top speed individual subscriptions > are will be in the 20-40% of max theoretical speed the entire solution ca= n > deliver). > >> The problem is now that Retail Servicer Provider X can deliver a post >> Gigabit service... what is capable of taking it off the ONU/CMNT point i= n >> the home? As usual it's a follow the money question, once RSP's can deli= ver >> Gbit+ they will need an ecosystem in the home to feed into it, and right= now >> there isn't a good technology platform that supports it; 10GBase-X/10GBa= seT >> is a non-starter due to the variability in home wiring - arguably the 7 = year >> leap from 100-1000mbit was easy It's mean a gap of 12 years and counting= for >> the same.. it's not just the NIC's and CPU's in the gateways it's the >> connector and in-home wiring problems as well. > > > As soon as one goes above 1GE, prices increases A LOT on everything > involved. I doubt we'll see any 2.5G or higher speed equipment in wide us= e > in home/SME in the next 5 years. > >> Blatant Plug - request : >> I'm interested to hear opinions on this as I have a talk on this very >> topic 'The long and Winding Road to 10Gbit+ in the home' >> https://linux.conf.au/ at Linuxconf in January. In particular if you >> have any home network gore/horror stories and photos you would be >> happy for me to include in my talk, please include. > > > I am still waiting for a decently priced 10GE switch. I can get 1GE 24por= t > managed ones, fanless, for 100-200USD. As soon as I go 10GE, price jumps = up > a lot, and I get fans. The NICs aren't widely available, even though they= 're > not the biggest problem. My in-house cabling can do 10GE, but I guess I'm= an > outlier. > > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se