From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi0-x235.google.com (mail-oi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 091213B2A2 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 20:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oi0-x235.google.com with SMTP id b126so116305934oia.2 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:53:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=btGQdxeyLOaBsDof7J5onDEV0PcJ8AJt8AeQWpzzxg0=; b=AwfTsywFSL9FfFvnMGP+fifYKNHG8zWRj6PDi4h9+GvyOyH7ame4NlZV5HxyxQ8mm/ qm4d28NWXIQvM/yQkARG9rao7BEhipNazyRA3/tokLY+NlObjO3+VNCo0c7cmtzajHVv kHK7/isiYgGljFAGY3JSy8WMtsObu7p/1D+XbVeIAP/zYb/lNUuR4S2ZeKmqGpaI9a7G PXB8JfJEjaDGUygozUwetmsFs/ARkLWwItHe/dVPMhyOhHfcmDy0EziS+V7EoAiGP5S5 eLMwNvj1fK3pDBjDYIAcJgALZEGf1Tf3XASiZ5ivfFE42IBHU2prWI+YHn6xP5Y3pHlk blqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=btGQdxeyLOaBsDof7J5onDEV0PcJ8AJt8AeQWpzzxg0=; b=VQF0fTAI6nh8bp/t7WTxvr/aGTYaBzGetsvVFvq3SUe5Z73X1NxPNGyvVaBjd43xza 80l+sZZIuqHJ/NJz8FnjN5nmzKKsaklv/Nds/EF5vwFvJdiQWehEWASzOB9S3dYhbiQ2 /WMdbQbiEh4raptF3oYgbs/uFDeriM0ecIDRe5qYMLslz2xAZ0ScKqhaARStLUiV5Cpf hru9iHKrQ2FWjkM5hYOmNZSx42Hu0v65T3tnwI2UMAuOpNxuNQDwEmOCj/XIa66nX/Yy 6EeO0ad9YXCh3vCPkSiViKczp0G9vov+d9CICimQSBy7TYx5KDO7qMzmlPupZV448Kmg zduw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC007iz45ZzimSqtP2T7XhSxHc+iz8FIVeK0XPs6CbpMFggY8fJ3H5jh5p88pU/gkH9JZA85JR/mB2K5Lvw== X-Received: by 10.202.108.8 with SMTP id h8mr8398009oic.146.1480211600336; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:53:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.48.136 with HTTP; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:53:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <548F6875-8670-4784-8A4D-9D4E6F0F20BD@gmail.com> References: <548F6875-8670-4784-8A4D-9D4E6F0F20BD@gmail.com> From: Aaron Wood Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:53:19 -0800 Message-ID: To: Rich Brown Cc: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142e2b2a16d8105423e9e35 Subject: Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 01:53:21 -0000 --001a1142e2b2a16d8105423e9e35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > 5) But I'm not hopeful that any of the COTS router vendors are going to > adopt these techniques, simply because they've been impervious to our > earlier entreaties. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try again - it'd be a > helluva competitive advantage to incorporate the 25-50 man years of intense > software development that has gone into this work. > (painting with a very large brush): But they aren't in the best position, really, to do this. Mostly their ODMs get the BSP Linux from the chipset vendor to work, slap a UI on it, and call it a day. And those BSPs are _ancient_. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2.6 still coming out on new models, let alone 4.0. To get the COTS devices to have this, we need to be able to back-port things far enough back that we can talk QCA, Broadcom, Marvell, RTLink, etc. to incorporate them into the BSP. But in the Sinclair vain, they like their proprietary things (like the hardware offload engines that ignore the linux stack as much as possible). So, I think we need to talk to the _right_ people at the chipset vendors to get traction on this. Smaller COTS vendors might be swayable (part of their value over the big companies). -Aaron --001a1142e2b2a16d8105423e9e35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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5) But I'm not hopeful that any of the COTS router vendors are going to= adopt these techniques, simply because they've been impervious to our = earlier entreaties. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try again - it&#= 39;d be a helluva competitive advantage to incorporate the 25-50 man years = of intense software development that has gone into this work.

(painting with a very large brush):

But they aren't in the best position, really, to do this.=C2= =A0 Mostly their ODMs get the BSP Linux from the chipset vendor to work, sl= ap a UI on it, and call it a day.=C2=A0 And those BSPs are _ancient_.=C2=A0= I wouldn't be surprised to see 2.6 still coming out on new models, let= alone 4.0.

To get the COTS devices to have this, = we need to be able to back-port things far enough back that we can talk QCA= , Broadcom, Marvell, RTLink, etc. to incorporate them into the BSP.=C2=A0 B= ut in the Sinclair vain, they like their proprietary things (like the hardw= are offload engines that ignore the linux stack as much as possible).
=

So, I think we need to talk to the _right_ people at th= e chipset vendors to get traction on this.=C2=A0 Smaller COTS vendors might= be swayable (part of their value over the big companies).

-Aaron
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