From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ie0-f170.google.com (mail-ie0-f170.google.com [209.85.223.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FC9321F14B for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 09:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id k10so6704338iea.29 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2012 09:32:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=dD/5hgpVStrNX+Ul+6T2QV2AHHOPgUky67OeoR9sNXk=; b=ghH7n4AJhCZUmSvA5OEzpJ8jevHoHXjnexxFP3brKHp3vGaNWOYyoKnxQ8Z9Er56jo 7wjnIYT16FGomv539T92ZCCNdocHM3ZIR3Bnca2L7QxG8UeU/JlqBcHd0znBNrz5M8LS djJX07sYfiPevvZrGWuGW6NABUscPV7eEsxai4AjI2e3goYzDjmmgxMnA2AhKq+FoJYv jVgMTDOhIG6Zwzk3gfF3XqCKqWhmmAZEUQQ42MTak/FaGCrVelT6x/ZOQ92GsEbeWgq1 DnbXM3+TjMv6KnX9EdZTaewP6Pmh4b69LpTe+a2Uz4GrXbg9zfTfQnMrNDG46dr9EHxl RaGw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.213.7 with SMTP id no7mr4513135igc.18.1355074323583; Sun, 09 Dec 2012 09:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.68.137 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 09:32:03 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [77.65.42.82] In-Reply-To: <54532012A5393D4E8F57704A4D55237E3CE5C5E7@CH1PRD0510MB381.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <54532012A5393D4E8F57704A4D55237E3CE5C5E7@CH1PRD0510MB381.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 18:32:03 +0100 Message-ID: From: Maciej Soltysiak To: Richard Brown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934033db3918404d06ed36a X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkS6VVz41m7Q4ah5j+wtOMLyJKW2IdiRSGndOpH71vr7fPg1OfYdKSAEG/pg7I9x4hLVhvx Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] Bufferbloat at LUG talk - Meeting Report X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 17:32:04 -0000 --14dae934033db3918404d06ed36a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent job Richard! Those slides are very clean and informative and you got fantastic real life user reports! Point #1 is very common: lots of behind-the-scenes javascript, buffering, asynchronous requests, facebook chat box and updates, etc. I was trying to make a mock conversation for the purpose of providing a story backing up the debloating efforts so that end users realize better what's going on. Please, guys, have a look and comment: https://soltysiak.com/wiki/index.php/BB_dialog Part 1 is an intro, also touching on tiered ISP services. Part 2 would be what bufferbloat is all about. Part 3 is an outro to have the users have a take-home message, also touching on DPI and other evil stuff ISPs do trying to workaround the issues. You can edit that wiki. I couldn't post it on bufferbloat.net wiki because I don't seem to have privilege to create new pages so I setup my own. Regards, Maciej On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Richard Brown wrote: > Folks, > > I gave the talk to the local Linux User Group on Thursday, and it went > really well. Two people came up to me after the talk and said, in effect, > "You know, I think I've seen this. But I've always blamed something else.= " > Their experience: > > - Attempting to Skype with a bunch of web browser tabs open gives bad > results. Closing the tabs made things better. (They been blaming the > browser for "using too much memory". Now it's possible to think that it's= a > network problem.) > > - Another person reported that his network connection (wireless ISP, two > hops to a wired network) seemed to work OK as long as his household was > mostly downloading. But uploading much of anything really made things bad= . > > I posted the slides at > http://www.bufferbloat.net/attachments/download/148/Bufferbloat-DLSLUG-De= c2012.pdf > > Rich > > PS I've updated the CeroWrt site to include links to a bunch of relevant > videos. (http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/cerowrt/wiki/Bloat-videos) > Please let me know if there are others that we should point to. > > On Nov 25, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Richard E. Brown > wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > I am planning to give a talk about Bufferbloat to the local Linux User > Group next week (http://dlslug.org). All this traffic on the list is > fantastic, because it gives me a lot of background on the current state o= f > bufferbloat. I've pulled together a bunch of general questions about > CeroWrt that I would like to be able to cover if they come up: > > > > - Is it true that the latest CeroWrt is Sugarland 3.3.8-26 from > mid-September? (My router is using this build - r33460.) > > > > - I see the "QoS" item in the Network tab of the web GUI. Is this > important for Sugarland? Or does some other router configuration take car= e > of this now? > > > > - What's the relationship between the QoS GUI item above and the > debloat.sh and simple_qos.sh scripts that have been mentioned on this lis= t? > What's the best practice here for getting a router up and running? > > > > - I can see how the CeroWrt de-bloating algorithms help protect against > bad latency when I'm *uploading* big files. I'm not sure whether using > CeroWrt with its CoDel/FQ/SFQ/etc. helps when I'm downloading big files, > though. What can I say about this? > > > > - I believe the default DNS server in Sugarland is dnsmasq, not bind. I= s > DNSSEC enabled by default? Also: there's a report (Bug #411) that says th= at > DNS is leaking internal names to the outside world. What's the best advic= e > for closing this? ("list notinterface 'ge00'" is one recommendation=E2=80= =A6) > > > > - I've been assembling information about the various de-bloating > techniques implemented in CeroWrt. It seems that Infoblox has recently > reorganized their blogs, and the links published earlier this week have a= ll > broken. Here are updates: > > > > > http://www.infoblox.com/community/blog/application-analysis-using-tcp-ret= ransmissions-part-1 > > > http://www.infoblox.com/community/blog/application-analysis-using-tcp-ret= ransmissions-part-2 > > http://www.infoblox.com/community/blog/router-buffer-tuning > > > http://www.infoblox.com/community/blog/rethinking-interface-error-reports > > > > My plan is to give a little of the science behind bufferbloat mitigatio= n > and also put in a plug for CeroWrt. Any topics I haven't already mentione= d > that I should? Thanks! > > > > Rich Brown > > Hanover, NH USA > > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --14dae934033db3918404d06ed36a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent job Richard! Those slides are very clean and informative and you = got fantastic real life user reports!
Point #1 is very common: lots of b= ehind-the-scenes javascript, buffering, asynchronous requests, facebook cha= t box and updates, etc.

I was trying to make a mock conversation for the purpose of providing a= story backing up the debloating efforts so that end users realize better w= hat's going on. Please, guys, have a look and comment:
https://soltysiak.com/wiki/in= dex.php/BB_dialog

Part 1 is an intro, also touching on tiered ISP services. Part 2 would = be what bufferbloat is all about. Part 3 is an outro to have the users have= a take-home message, also touching on DPI and other evil stuff ISPs do try= ing to workaround the issues.

You can edit that wiki.

I couldn't post it on bufferbloat.net wiki because I don't seem to h= ave privilege to create new pages so I setup my own.

Regards,
Mac= iej


On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Richard = Brown <richard.e.brown@dartware.com> wrote:
Folks,

I gave the talk to the local Linux User Group on Thursday, and it went real= ly well. Two people came up to me after the talk and said, in effect, "= ;You know, I think I've seen this. But I've always blamed something= else." Their experience:

- Attempting to Skype with a bunch of web browser tabs open gives bad resul= ts. Closing the tabs made things better. (They been blaming the browser for= "using too much memory". Now it's possible to think that it&= #39;s a network problem.)

- Another person reported that his network connection (wireless ISP, two ho= ps to a wired network) seemed to work OK as long as his household was mostl= y downloading. But uploading much of anything really made things bad.

I posted the slides at http://www.buf= ferbloat.net/attachments/download/148/Bufferbloat-DLSLUG-Dec2012.pdf
Rich

PS I've updated the CeroWrt site to include links to a bunch of relevan= t videos. (http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/cerowrt/wik= i/Bloat-videos) Please let me know if there are others that we should p= oint to.

On Nov 25, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Richard E. Brown <rbrown@intermapper.com> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I am planning to give a talk about Bufferbloat to the local Linux User= Group next week (http://dl= slug.org). All this traffic on the list is fantastic, because it gives = me a lot of background on the current state of bufferbloat. I've pulled= together a bunch of general questions about CeroWrt that I would like to b= e able to cover if they come up:
>
> - Is it true that the latest CeroWrt is Sugarland 3.3.8-26 from mid-Se= ptember? (My router is using this build - r33460.)
>
> - I see the "QoS" item in the Network tab of the web GUI. Is= this important for Sugarland? Or does some other router configuration take= care of this now?
>
> - What's the relationship between the QoS GUI item above and the d= ebloat.sh and simple_qos.sh scripts that have been mentioned on this list? = What's the best practice here for getting a router up and running?
>
> - I can see how the CeroWrt de-bloating algorithms help protect agains= t bad latency when I'm *uploading* big files. I'm not sure whether = using CeroWrt with its CoDel/FQ/SFQ/etc. helps when I'm downloading big= files, though. What can I say about this?
>
> - I believe the default DNS server in Sugarland is dnsmasq, not bind. = Is DNSSEC enabled by default? Also: there's a report (Bug #411) that sa= ys that DNS is leaking internal names to the outside world. What's the = best advice for closing this? ("list notinterface 'ge00'"= is one recommendation=E2=80=A6)
>
> - I've been assembling information about the various de-bloating t= echniques implemented in CeroWrt. It seems that Infoblox has recently reorg= anized their blogs, and the links published earlier this week have all brok= en. Here are updates:
>
> http://www.infoblox.co= m/community/blog/application-analysis-using-tcp-retransmissions-part-1<= br> > http://www.infoblox.co= m/community/blog/application-analysis-using-tcp-retransmissions-part-2<= br> > http://www.infoblox.com/community/blog/router-buffer-tu= ning
> http://www.infoblox.com/community/blog/re= thinking-interface-error-reports
>
> My plan is to give a little of the science behind bufferbloat mitigati= on and also put in a plug for CeroWrt. Any topics I haven't already men= tioned that I should? Thanks!
>
> Rich Brown
> Hanover, NH USA


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