From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x42f.google.com (mail-pf1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B621F3CB35 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id y13so6977341pfm.11 for ; Tue, 02 Apr 2019 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mounce.com.au; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=p4nuQJ3kQuzk8HwNCzQ3XSyyyvN9//Fi+rEiFlBzG6g=; b=dXpkdQ2qEq2NQXzgatkVkzfjTjX3CCIfr6EEyyauJd4StHtpw9YJai5xaG/5+YxjT8 dfFQV9sqSvnK3mlo6AdGbNPdj7p6h3EoGcfjVcQCn3tpMqbo1T81JskeVM6vjDlEZe8j 8NCP9a1HAGn/rUGCY1yAcafdlmG7w0zso2Nwbxadn1YupNKjjfcfYq6+VRbG1fYK49G/ LXB4jlEojKkgAv6OArjTk+QPy0jY9tCjgMJBrqxrVRELNT+5XkZw7tCZqHY2RSRMA4LN 0eGRaQSp7xVE9H9OdF+PfWWS0idERy16NWW7o3BoPbOs0ydRsHu078Fr1MoptcFl3dDF V8Iw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=p4nuQJ3kQuzk8HwNCzQ3XSyyyvN9//Fi+rEiFlBzG6g=; b=trSlLRQVsBiHqhv8kqPpqooav0YaHWANiNZuNQ296ElsH9ta1iu1lYHfgHHkbRz2ui vBeMiuviEn3cslbQw611BauUGnNvrZOXcIcCm+bbzramQUT4KTG/AQgo/uOV/LdLnBoF 0mlgMGEdTmugDQxVzJGJjJHWXsIf/CDH4FCYXwKtypPzhpuYyz76/TJibJ0DEbPE0yXD /8LJz6YvsfvoCeH6xrS4r2enw8uichvWVF7M1/kFRkLrrNe/dhcHnRYPrytF+GC+xe2n Vn1B8tjq6xT0cgAdsH8EcGTzHG7OnXAPsNSe3VLyaYas+Zg+gL8VH4oz/jVyMPkKOm9U Z5Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXNS4gPjAUHYUeMkCVi5Q3lludz77hw6NTWx8Eh4j0A8d+cssYt RQO9mEYuUydvv34ihpWK+uH1AVFakrbVKLua2LJDcPTJAqZ7Gw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwRXpaFIANKljcd2K4SPKqLxhGmHvq7jchMl02CDmkGGGw6RoCjxJ0JL0ij4iyCvU+s/CqqdXvodiX4DZHonvk= X-Received: by 2002:a62:b61a:: with SMTP id j26mr13810731pff.203.1554239442459; Tue, 02 Apr 2019 14:10:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <47CA8CDA-3060-40C2-AC0A-04899F08C9DE@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Ryan Mounce Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 07:40:31 +1030 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Foulkes Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] number of home routers with ingress AQM X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 21:10:43 -0000 On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 00:41, Jonathan Foulkes wrot= e: > > Hi Ryan, > > See below > > > On Apr 2, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Ryan Mounce wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 23:35, Mikael Abrahamsson wrot= e: > >> > >> I've read rumours about some ISPs implementing interaction with the VD= SL > >> DSLAM where there is an estimation of the current link-speed for each > >> individual customer and then it tries to set the BNG egress shaper > >> appropriately. > > > > NBN here in Australia do this for their wholesale FTTN/B VDSL2 > > product, injecting the downstream and upstream sync speed into > > PPPoE/DHCP requests. This still depends on the retail service > > providers to make use of these attributes from their BNG to configure > > the shaper. > > Very interesting, and extremely useful that they surface the sync rate in= the PPPoE/DHCP exchanges. How are those externalized in something like Ope= nWRT at this time? These attributes are tacked onto the requests towards the ISP - so unfortunately they're not of any use to configure a shaper on the home gateway side. > FYI- The IQrouter supports the notion of a tightly coupled modem from whi= ch current sync rates (as well as other SNR / Atten stats) can be dynamical= ly queried, which in turn are used in the AQM settings computations. Works = wonders on flaky DSL lines that vary sync rate with time of day and weather= . If that VDSL2 sync rate relayed is exposed in the system somehow, it woul= d make dynamic adjustments possible. Yeah, I did something similar for a family member stuck on ADSL. Scraped the sync speed from the cheap bridged TP-Link modem and used it to configure cake - with periodic updates in case of a resync. > > NBN is an example again. Their documented behaviour is to police > > traffic in both directions. Most ISPs then shape in the downstream - > > and it's up to a tightly managed (TR-069 ?) ISP HGW or a diligent end > > user to shape traffic in the upstream. Many - probably even most users > > have no shaping whatsoever in the upstream, only a policer. > > > > And then there is their new FTTdp product, where it is not currently > > possible to determine the real VDSL2 sync speed. If there's a drop of > > rain it will resync at a lower speed in the upstream, and then > > everything ends up queuing inside the supplied modem=E2=80=A6 > > Oh, so they regressed from their other offering, not exposing sync rates? Yep. The wholesaler provides the modem (also integrating a reverse power supply to the mini DSLAM / "DPU") so the customer demarcation point is a gigabit ethernet port - abstracting the xDSL side of things from the customer's equipment. Apparently they're working on making real time sync speeds available ISPs that want to query them as part of service diagnostics, and haven't even got that contrived solution working yet. And then you still need to get that info from your ISP, fortunately mine has just added the unique ability to trigger your own service diagnostics and retrieve the results so it may be possible to scrape it this way. Quite the kludge at that point. Fortunately the mini DSLAM is typically less than 50m from your property boundary and spliced directly into the lead-in cable, so it is normally capable of syncing above the maximum 100/40 rate that's offered and thus limited by the consistent policer rather than the variable line rate. Unless it rains - then all bets are off. Isn't copper great? > > BTW- this hole notion of the BGM relaying the provisioned or current sync= rates should be a mandated requirement, as it has huge benefits for AQMs. = Not that it can be relied on 100%, but at least it makes a good starting po= int.