From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-we0-x230.google.com (mail-we0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63DF821F1D2 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id s43so1133240wey.21 for ; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 07:12:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=fM901HYIzjgaZK/cnsgKHJttbKagKXNMR1em/r53/XE=; b=NQ59gqbfrY1P8WzvYXcckyquxeOSveC1Zzek2mo+t/POJqEd1rMaoI7Gy9jApkUd5A 1M4H8xsORtBxlX/szWeAPBFLqIi8Pz/SBxGE6fX6KqaaoTx1JtufYfzwZm5mJF9XsHTB YeZvTO3umkskvylQn0BKipOsHFoNMfVFZyNHRevpoqE9+ss8EErIUHl1plz0zcIGCp5n iSQmplpRkxYkqh/adXEoL4NbPY0hAYFzaEj9UM1acun5UnnezICqOe2lRTg9stYmLGKD TW1TMnVg9iB79s7e1/EfquvBRA3GwOBx1YGGfkSsPxb8mFUKKR6KKEQ//yFNOqDnblh/ PukA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.183.142 with SMTP id em14mr30076445wic.14.1362755559618; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 07:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:12:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 10:12:39 -0500 Message-ID: From: Sandy McArthur To: bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c23a600c309c04d76b41be Subject: Re: [Bloat] Advice for dual wifi home network X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 15:12:43 -0000 --001a11c23a600c309c04d76b41be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thank you for your replies. They have helped me untwist my thoughts a lot. After reading/thinking I believe I will drop the cero subnet optimizations and go with a more typical bridged network setup. This install will be at my parents large one story house and their desire is for their devices to just work as they roam the house. A primary use case that prompted me to revisit their network setup is improving the performance of their AT&T MicroCell when the SlingBox is in use. Also my understanding of SlingBox is if the SlingBox and sling client (eg: a tablet) aren't in the same subnet then the client will connect to the public internet IP address instead of the internal lan address putting unnecessary load on their internet connection. I'm hoping codel does a good job keeping the microcell working nicely in call while an user is accessing the slingbox from the internet. Thanks again. On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 7:51 PM, David Lang wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Dave Taht wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 7:09 PM, David Lang wrote: >> >> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Dave Taht wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Jonathan Morton >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 Mar, 2013, at 1:22 am, Sandy McArthur wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm looking to setup a home network with two APs connected by >>>>> ethernet. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think I understand the default network settings for use as a >>>>> single >>>>> cerowrt network but I'm struggling how to wrap my brain around how a >>>>> second >>>>> router should be configured so that the second access point isn't just >>>>> another level of NAT deeper inside the first router. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Internet ---- cerowrt A ---- cerowrt B >>>>>> >>>>>> Configuring the B router is what is confusing me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> You will need four devices, if your modem is not itself a router: >>>>> >>>>> Modem ----- Router (does NAT) >>>>> | | >>>>> AP AP (both in bridge mode) >>>>> >>>>> - Jonathan Morton >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bridging bad idea in modern age. Routing good. Just the two cero >>>> devices >>>> he >>>> has is fine., >>>> >>>> >>> Bridging is bad, but bridging with the ability to move from AP to AP can >>> be far better than two routers and the user has to manually disconnect >>> from >>> one (breaking all existing connections) and attach to the other. >>> >>> >> Depends on signal strength. I'd rather reconnect to wifi box "upstairs", >> clearly marked as such, when upstairs. I'd rather my wifi boxes live on >> different channels, so devices in each part of the house get more >> bandwidth, less errors/retries and lower latency. >> > > the two routers should absolutly be on different channels. > > As for manually connecting to a particular AP vs just 'any AP on this > band' (because it is _very_ useful to seperate the 2.4G and 5G bands), an > expert paying attention can get a slight advantage from manually connecting > to the right one, but in practice, people are not going to bother to switch > until the connection becomes unusable (and some may not even do so then). > This causes many retranmissions, and higher power levels which interfere > with other users. > > In the case of persistent connections these days I mostly use >> mosh.mit.eduinstead of ssh, and mosh survives moving from any network >> >> to any network >> and even suspend/resume. That was my main use of persistent connections, >> admittedly. >> > > having to abort and restart a video stream because you moved out of range > of one router and so you now will have a different IP address is a bad > thing for example. > > > That's me. >> >> Now, cero's preference for routing over bridging comes from the science >> part, in that it was impossible to analyze the behavior of bridged >> wifi/wired networks when we started, so we broke apart the 2.4 ghz, 5.xghz >> and ethernet networks started exploring what it would take to make routing >> easier and better. >> >> Along the way, for example, babel gained authentication. >> >> It certainly is possible to bridge or only partially bridge cero, it's >> just >> more complex than routing it, presently. >> >> Secondly, and I know I'm weird, I still generally use ahcp and babel on my >> laptops and thus regain the ability to move from AP to AP, as well as act >> as a mesh node for such, as well as move from ethernet to wireless and >> back, transparently, without dropping connections. >> >> That's a bit of bleeding edge technology that few have tried... and has >> become harder and harder to use on unhackable android devices, in >> particular. >> > > The question is "is this network only supposed to be able to support > people running these bleeding edge technologies, or is it supposed to > support all applications?" > > for most people, they need to support existing applications and do not > have the option of changing the protocols in use, so for many people, > bridging works best when you have multiple APs. > > Now, one thing I did not get into earlier, when you have multiple APs and > bridge them, they should be getting bridged onto a dedicated 'wifi' wired > network that is then routed to your wired device. You do not want to have > your wired chit-chat and broadcast traffic bleeding over to your wifi > network. > > > David Lang > ______________________________**_________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/**listinfo/bloat > -- Sandy McArthur "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine --001a11c23a600c309c04d76b41be Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for your replies. They hav= e helped me untwist my thoughts a lot.

After reading/thinking I be= lieve I will drop the cero subnet optimizations and go with a more typical = bridged network setup. This install will be at my parents large one story h= ouse and their desire is for their devices to just work as they roam the ho= use.=C2=A0

A primary use case that prompted me to revisit their network setup is impro= ving the performance of their AT&T MicroCell when the SlingBox is in us= e. Also my understanding of SlingBox is if the SlingBox and sling client (e= g: a tablet) aren't in the same subnet then the client will connect to = the public internet IP address instead of the internal lan address putting= =C2=A0unnecessary=C2=A0load on their internet connection. I'm hoping co= del does a good job keeping the microcell working nicely in call while an u= ser is accessing the slingbox from the internet.

Thanks again.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 7:51 PM, David Lang <david@lang.= hm> wrote:
On T= hu, 7 Mar 2013, Dave Taht wrote:

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 7:09 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

On Thu, 7 Mar 2013, Dave Taht wrote:

=C2=A0On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com
wrote:


On 8 Mar, 2013, at 1:22 am, Sandy McArthur wrote:

=C2=A0I'm looking to setup a home network with two APs connected by eth= ernet.

=C2=A0I think I understand the default network settings for use as a single=
cerowrt network but I'm struggling how to wrap my brain around how a second
router should be configured so that the second access point isn't just<= br> another level of NAT deeper inside the first router.


Internet ---- cerowrt A ---- cerowrt B

Configuring the B router is what is confusing me.


You will need four devices, if your modem is not itself a router:

Modem =C2=A0----- =C2=A0Router (does NAT)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0AP =C2=A0 =C2=A0AP =C2=A0 (= both in bridge mode)

=C2=A0- Jonathan Morton


Bridging bad idea in modern age. Routing good. Just the two cero devices he
has is fine.,


Bridging is bad, but bridging with the ability to move from AP to AP can be far better than two routers and the user has to manually disconnect from=
one (breaking all existing connections) and attach to the other.


Depends on signal strength. I'd rather reconnect to wifi box "upst= airs",
clearly marked as such, when upstairs. I'd rather my wifi boxes live on=
different channels, so devices in each part of the house get more
bandwidth, less errors/retries and lower latency.

the two routers should absolutly be on different channels.

As for manually connecting to a particular AP vs just 'any AP on this b= and' (because it is _very_ useful to seperate the 2.4G and 5G bands), a= n expert paying attention can get a slight advantage from manually connecti= ng to the right one, but in practice, people are not going to bother to swi= tch until the connection becomes unusable (and some may not even do so then= ). This causes many retranmissions, and higher power levels which interfere= with other users.

In the case of persistent connections these days I mostly use
mosh.mit.eduinstead of ssh, and mosh survives moving from any network

to any network
and even suspend/resume. That was my main use of persistent connections, admittedly.

having to abort and restart a video stream because you moved out of range o= f one router and so you now will have a different IP address is a bad thing= for example.


That's me.

Now, cero's preference for routing over bridging comes from the science=
part, in that it was impossible to analyze the behavior of bridged
wifi/wired networks when we started, so we broke apart the 2.4 ghz, 5.xghz<= br> and ethernet networks started exploring what it would take to make routing<= br> easier and better.

Along the way, for example, babel gained authentication.

It certainly is possible to bridge or only partially bridge cero, it's = just
more complex than routing it, presently.

Secondly, and I know I'm weird, I still generally use ahcp and babel on= my
laptops and thus regain the ability to move from AP to AP, as well as act as a mesh node for such, as well as move from ethernet to wireless and
back, transparently, without dropping connections.

That's a bit of bleeding edge technology that few have tried... and has=
become harder and harder to use on unhackable android devices, in
particular.

The question is "is this network only supposed to be able to support p= eople running these bleeding edge technologies, or is it supposed to suppor= t all applications?"

for most people, they need to support existing applications and do not have= the option of changing the protocols in use, so for many people, bridging = works best when you have multiple APs.

Now, one thing I did not get into earlier, when you have multiple APs and b= ridge them, they should be getting bridged onto a dedicated 'wifi' = wired network that is then routed to your wired device. You do not want to = have your wired chit-chat and broadcast traffic bleeding over to your wifi = network.


David Lang
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@list= s.bufferbloat.net
= https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



--
= Sandy McArthur

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."=
- Thomas Paine --001a11c23a600c309c04d76b41be--