From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A82343B29D for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 15:47:51 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1666468070; bh=5jOsZg2Rzdu4ZMFgrO+v9N0Gvbwum8oLMYLHt+c3Yqo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=GUHQXt4WkLdAfsqwhBQ7JuqmPGI1OYLvYX1nJ0xt4uk6e0UsKSg4IVjByF0qQWjke LAkdx+WZxVcMn9dTd1in4POx728UqyGVDInmIAf7+A/E4IlsNoKoOA8vOw05+QQLz4 gVmWXK7LphzvZ75Cn3rD8kcQxG67labJareV8GdE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MMofW-1oTZ8D3E0a-00Ipq5; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 21:47:49 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 21:47:48 +0200 Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> <6710sq51-1151-s739-qq87-0r5264qrs9q8@ynat.uz> To: Matt Taggart X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:VHubMZ2Ez8HDK3NGtztqVMA7/xEgIfeRF+nlo4X6GUB79qKbezF J+wR6+ZTtHcbFnoI8XTSKvcKSzifnwNp1KsoD4cy9K7V4qyvD0Uzixh54KrrSIpBFdyokqe rpaZCYbj3iUNETmCMt0CIQzQJiYrM8dlXOCofxhbqyfqYvTvb/iS6t9AKkC2JfN47WygRg9 ywvsUVCwQphj1TIeCRSDQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:w8G2Onc641I=:FeE59gzBRAxyn6z35j6/JV LZks6iSfn6BI2Rx0ch9Zat2pZz0CTsMfjcHaB8hIUVYwgw9kRwAd5SJEp8rZVLlsVOZKRx8vK 3A3JOyvIeAkpFVXuYgFb+7SU/ITUpTtO6Tm5/F8RB+vXRyPlX2gpZOiplrYexZ47sbERa2FBk XOkEWDMwWjSkTBTI9R3HGJ/kTrACo2Rje5hGYdmB79aQajGK2wbtlW9MYi73LwsDfSG44sP55 y51Dsr6tvJgoErsv0bM5r5gzsIlOEN7SmlXOZTbQrultCB+rYh/Y6LYJig6rgmjSEeZHhHbgr bvSmJpaFwSxYlFwNy3EkZI1H9nVOsgyTAFriSzCKj/LZntBS+SdXlmnT9GuAVxPEP2CHRzUNx 9X/tFmluV6kw+PqM4/5o5qitLIH1tuWnFqmfgSitaBq7Yq3GROQ83nm7pQQNPQVBnb7j7o5NB YykuQ1n7exj3n8L7fYtVv06lhaRx8XUQreol0GH9d+bHAdm4bBj9TRKq3VdOIVz0qhS1nPOno /7TYzfMGoOBUOF1A6ZQQ66bQgBwETPt+iJr4zGhhs88oi8fnwqnf6F/37WuF/qFZgWDVwa02x juZTGb7tA+JwQyqdMP/3UOtosoYRoZtZ0cC6pM2qeB2HoCP5i1k90yjHTdLxwbK4S2JTAm5BL /vgRKF9k4mVi0/DZWdK+EOP5dfSUSpto3sgiE8AVeMOI1bPnu7eCrRSehckg9CVFLLVRr9Vzg U+4t6SwJVa9gYpLbzqxvlQ39EkrAHgaY0sW9OK1v/vrncjEJV6clAsloPdgo8wByNcyFXsp4/ Chmb5IZOIP1QuciD+m/lCQn/iIfZ31BT6zKi30u8L/kvrUrDpDmMvH/J7eIERmnvHECVFK7FI l1xpo8NvbjwxU6Ls+AodVKRCFvZaGfNorudvDW6HfKLHMGjw2mDCxfq5vQnn7CcXCiHD6u2Io f94b1QlVhLuBtvjtVcrGoOQ10DnrIftV52hY++nu2xpaxNYoo63Al/0qrxV91/GQ/SpT7Fi6r zF0LmAN0nY7LyGfxOt6aSpd/cYw/4WwHSLm8KgUfJS66XL/V0FhVkOPtHFqBM34xnidxgbxQd Us8aiLIW35qnqUzp6lKMnbSpkjhcpBRsSlwcwnIPt6HQZ1WcXGkYZVGYtUGWLqVDmx2Ak09G3 PcwL4Pzrmkr+rxXO87FT74Y2bo0AAOrj+5pXWz/fZuUz8ompTMl1OxKNzRAUl9pvsFd3TZpJ2 VnzEywMvqfo+p7zHXZlktUUhu9Tkbu4VFeqlcioTU+ju+WkdWK6xB5w/K/BdInqa2hMl/8r2M K7JB/dnW++N8Xoi0yGWT2thxfGJDneuutq+RHY+CNkjWRCSryHyegfkmPg96i9VFoVGoPn0ZA jPf3SMR9wy8yyiaY4V9LLRH1UBB3jo9/Hjp1/NQjz7KplpU60xliGwKR9Pr39IGsjTlJ+Nr1J BVITOI7eUgsOX+gpAp/bA8doxVhW4sgBH2dgHkivKAGoYEH+AdqpBMLfyVkRnDGIxKvm9XTuF R4JgBPr6mm3JrVJbbgRj/qAGH9BZHGwoWseMkaUY66CCd Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 19:47:52 -0000 Hi Matt, > On Oct 22, 2022, at 20:37, Matt Taggart via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > On 10/17/22 19:58, David Lang via Bloat wrote: >=20 >> actually, fair queueing is more like the '15 items or less' lanes to = speed through the people doing simple things rather than having them = wait behind the mother of 7 doing their monthly shopping. >=20 > Sort of, but CoS/QoS could be described that way too? But at least = it's based on the quantity of items, CoS/QoS would be more like "moms = with kids go in this line, business execs go in this line, everybody = else in this other line" and "we have 4 checkers available for the = business exec line, 2 for the mom&kid line, and the remaining for = everyone else". >=20 > Maybe the best is: I'm standing in long line with a huge cart of = groceries and there is a person behind me with only 3 things, so I tell = them to go ahead of me so their wait time isn't even worse. But usually = this happens because the people in line make it happen, the checkers = default to FIFO out of "fairness" (for some value of fair). >=20 > Maybe car-pool lanes are a good analogy, but some of them are HOV and = some of them allow you to pay to use... [SM] None of the real life models are all that well fitting for the = problem, information simply is different from tangible objects in that = dropping and resending on failure are less problematic. But that means = that all "intuitive" analogies are out and trying to explain internet = congestion and remedies with telegrams or even letters does not really = help all that much (and in both cases dropping was rare and considered a = failure not part of normal operations as far as I can see). Different queueing strategies have analogies (think a road/bridge pay = terminal which might be single queue fifo or might offer multiple = parallel booths) but AQM really is hard to get an analogy for... = probably because most analogies put us into the mindset of an individual = packet, while AQMs operate on the assumption of packet trains that will = respond to signaling. To conjure something up this is a bit like going = to the sports-ball game every Sunday with a special ticket that allows = unlimited +1s if the stadion is not yet capacity and them telling you = the time you (this is ECN) come with 10 friends to try with fewer = friends next time... or simply only letting say 5 in (dropping the rest) = so next time you try only with 5... that is all but intuitive. Regards Sebastian >=20 > Also couldn't resist :) >=20 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DRGWiTvYZR_w >=20 > --=20 > Matt Taggart > matt@lackof.org > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat