From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C7A593F6AC; Mon, 10 Nov 2025 07:27:44 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762756061; x=1763360861; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=JemPiNqrWAV2FkvGPT+15LR1GXrlYzcUMU3uyTvU0r8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=M5AeZ3Y1JEJbb+2FSCxZgsFXTPxdjVuvK69ZEbAi1GT2h9wHCVNQDCzzjhjHR+1e +zk78bZ3NruEdY8ZTFvlOnD0LJhVceHP8i6F0pYYyg15+2nHujuRlKcBtqxUY8EkK 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X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Bloat] Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 10 November 2025 05:48:38 CET, Jim Forster = wrote: >> On Nov 8, 2025, at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >>=20 >> As a market realist (that is someone who accepts efficient market when = he sees them, but does not naive believe in the fairy tales of the invisibl= e hand of the market) I think that we would be often much better off with a= competently managed/regulated monopoly than with duo- to oligopolies that = are treated as if they were efficient markets=2E=2E=2E Infrastructure (and = at least access networks are at least infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not somet= hing where the free market typically excels at=2E > > >Yeah, I also don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s an efficient, fair, mark= et here that gets us what we w=2E In some ways, the Digital Divide is an ex= pected outcome of capital allocation decisions by deregulated companies in = a sector that has economies of scale and network effects=2E Indeed=2E=2E=2E I just note that the POTS network was much more comprehens= ive in its reach due to stricter regulation=2E=2E=2E > >At the same time, a "competently managed/regulated monopoly=E2=80=9D may = be as uncommon as Homo Economicus sitings are=2E=20 Na, only if we put our aim for competence too high ;) =2E Over here electr= icity, water and street "networks" are dece ntly regulated infrastructure=2E >Which example can you cite? NZ? UK? SE? And have they transitioned smooth= ly to new technology that would diminish the value of their existing infras= tructure? =20 Tricky=2E=2E=2E for infrastructure in general I believe there are loads of= examples in Europe, for internet access networks it gets a bit trickier, b= ut there are some examples of combining a single network with operator comp= etition=2E (And that is my preferred model, monopoly network with regulated= and fair access for operators, and then have as many operators as possibke= offer their services over that network)=2E But partial examples exist, e= =2Eg=2E the fiber network built in Amsterdam, or the point to point fiber n= etwork in switzerland where the incumbent built most of the ftth network an= d is regulated to physically unbundle individual lines to end customers, re= sultung in surprising competition of ISPs operating different technology ov= er the same fibers (swisscom uses xgspon, salt=2Ech uses their own xgspin O= LTs, init7 uses AON up to 25 Gbps)=2E Sweden also seems to have a decent (a= lbeit not regulated) separation between network operators and ISPs that off= er services over these networks=2E > >I recall that in the US prior to the =2Ecom boom, the telco=E2=80=99s ide= a of broadband was ISDN or maybe DSL or SMDS=2E They wrote many papers, had= lots of trials, but did not aggressively do broadband, =20 Yes, I agree that the old model of a vertically integrated full service te= lco breed complacency and was not ideal either (even though the POTS networ= k had better reach than the HFC networks)=2E : 'Everyone knew=E2=80=99 that the cablecos=E2=80=99 HFC would never work,= and that they could not do digital and certainly not voice, HFC worked, a= nd DOCSIS was a big success=2E That pressured the telcos to start actually = deploying DSL, but it was too late, and the cablecos have dominated US broa= dband for a couple of decades=2E=20 The outcome in Germany was different=2E=2E=2E hfc networks only ever reach= ed around 75% of households and never exceeded 10 of estimated 45 million a= ccess sites for broadband services, while DSL still serves almost 23 millio= n (and reaches almost all 45 million)=2EBut yes on the technology side it l= ikely was hfc's pressure that sped up dsl development=2E Now, the german market is a bit odd, as customers are neither terribly hun= gry for high capacity nor terribly price sensitive (the old ex-monopoly tel= co still serves most dsl customers in spite of being more expensive due to = valid regulatory interventions)=2E Regards Sebastian P=2ES=2E: I understand that in this question there are of course multiple = equally valid and justifyable positions one could take, this just happens t= o be mine=2E A couple of friendly ISPs for example reject this idea as they= consider access networks to be a field where ISPs can differentiate and co= mpete (some of them however proposed a regulated middle mile to be able to = economically reach IXs and peering points to even the playing field)=2E > >Jim > > >>=20 > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E