From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8995C3B29D for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2025 09:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5401ab97206so2876574e87.3 for ; Sat, 01 Feb 2025 06:52:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1738421523; x=1739026323; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=n32WfHvj0EkoAut38Ifx4OTtX0ss57fFbxQFGDF/K6k=; b=V6darBhZjiqkP1T6fzOmvByFOcYb04G6oXiRxToEYFV9yzlPrdiLg/mGlZayEc8V+3 mBeCvYcWcRv2DAnI5/p+ryWCPP+pSI2FrvOusJ5+2lsmf5kuA6A4BWhnTbewCCfoTEik SVx2WanITKBBA8vj3iGcsZWs9L9/KRn32RicztEk8LlHEL9lG1LPuefxSFzUmaj0O+27 TglNIAmwW8SU4SfYqKcNm0YF/h+th0u2vPrI4FBEwR8AkLYT3fLcwIzQZhOSNAMVU2Nm 2Vg/aoN2eSM6+aW+XeuSqCcK0c5uAotpCKkDoseLfmTidnOZVOjCyrbkFle1IlLHBBLy scYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1738421523; x=1739026323; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=n32WfHvj0EkoAut38Ifx4OTtX0ss57fFbxQFGDF/K6k=; b=IjvPgZZAS6ixn5mhgvqkRCKHEL+ZeMhwPstQIcHsaHLsX9u/nDvlaG/6rrdP7zgi+C y46m5Tl9wI7ykWicvQsP9GSggffSG4vxzzgZ+gtT/sKxOjAzVe23QXpYBiKfXW4bRuQU JVI70zxMWc9DOhaSg+3ySE/zsmf8OAd8dmU6/bNQekkcxGK2OGg2zze3zsnPXYG6aSnx Zy06XoBic+bFiQittQ3tNiEO0MGf71h0NepDwbmePo2mhrN1gjchNaD9TCanhFdvBkWj EMwUKPDKeVoLl/Sr1CYjyoluGUKidi27HktyoBXY5lccC0u1O0jNzh5wIi0Te9p5h5Cs KiBA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUk3cTTQMUT3+CsCf6OjDM9tTjGQJqLVbA0SlTiED/yDXgfEfvJ+8NNS+NnXwh7ne/dR1wGZw==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxOOPKluOrwiQLUbch4MB4IoQpbPuNp1U5Tw3/e/s1/qpswy/sq swzNqGDoRtPNdZ+OPR3nyDQzJKeGzkLUe9E4ZDsLbGbRe2egoKAL X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctdhODYgVIGb2lkXb5QGQVLz2WTSQlTrOnKNSAjUj7zi+8aPNuExuAKS/Tl/Ew +nH9ByZcHO5Zo2ht1e8osrVCedlSCRh3QSYipQIg6tuMv5GC3bi+8rMay7OSqKHpbeAxZg1ENuy GwH4/jVdEba1PLkrZhChgSHknTUjuB5A3EGe4eV40erHxoCgfDL/IzB0WxuxjRjhmOMzDvzdbrS gNPw/VK9N+V8TDnCE3sd6b8R7v+a0ZCe0o8yTSuoClqc15bU8KC+uht51Ph9R5OprafziMbgD/p JI0IqnGMbJDYR1RWYpVwnLLIUotFzWS7UezqB9e5pXaAHZM8IzsorrTBFis= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGIannaxL5shA1eXzC0Oi0NOmeSqTS0Xl0Y6h/n+FfkGGHpaOlyUQQuGu7z/01GZcC2j08NBQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c30:0:b0:542:238d:d714 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-543e4c31223mr4676375e87.32.1738421522906; Sat, 01 Feb 2025 06:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (37-33-7-26.bb.dnainternet.fi. [37.33.7.26]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2adb3069b0e04-543ebeb7dc0sm763628e87.199.2025.02.01.06.52.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Feb 2025 06:52:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: <9A110AF4-E976-4228-9FA6-92C5C99F611A@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 16:51:59 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , David Collier-Brown , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <48F77C27-0E57-4F96-9BD8-238CC93342F8@gmail.com> <9A110AF4-E976-4228-9FA6-92C5C99F611A@gmx.de> To: Sebastian Moeller X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Subject: Re: [Bloat] Comcast & L4S X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2025 14:52:04 -0000 > On 1 Feb, 2025, at 4:33 pm, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=A6Comcast's use of the Internet Engineering Task Force's Low = Latency Low Loss Scalable Throughput (L4S) standards=E2=80=A6 That's the tail wagging the dog - but precisely the kind of = non-specialist misunderstanding that L4S' hijacking of the IETF process = was designed to foster. It's an EXPERIMENT that the IETF has been BROWBEATEN by Comcast into = PERMITTING to occur. It is NOT a STANDARD, and it was NOT IETF-led. = Every single design suggestion that IETF proposed, to improve = coexistence with other schemes that ARE IETF standards, was resisted or = outright ignored. As with NQB, Cake already does essentially what L4S requires, except for = default-configured Codel being less than ideal as an AQM for producing = congestion signals for a DCTCP-type response. I have no intention of = modifying Cake to *specifically* accommodate L4S in any way. If their = crap doesn't work properly in a standards-compliant environment, that's = THEIR problem. - Jonathan Morton=