From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B03BC3B29E for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 20:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id c11-v6so11184046lja.4 for ; Sun, 01 Jul 2018 17:17:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PmGRh9fL3l8MwNtvLtx5InktKZ+MpvpnIzFdS1D0/YU=; b=a/zICa63DGjLr2onGQ8OLhRhSrF3jzg66R5RrrQxwDNeaLnYSmrmK/sYjQJy0PrClK NnLRmxfDV8dXx5IIYaqpoOz/8N9ppVHytnhetYDfzSrENZ1Z5O0L5c90gBX03RpVpFvQ w0X5evFz78rXbiCC81cVkzXEFb7rRebnT9347ry01fZpqdTqJtEQV65nPZjdDFCpwf01 0v+oqJoCeHBhkYAm3R77Lq7E/dzPCPxHfhTMQDGB1CKh/Tog6EYWnImuk7VX+jUu50lb x+MrhIUuzVIiCh0MZeUXpxP9PtMzwGgBm9+UMRI2bqMmFWOOk1kh8qR9j0Kj1Cbwpfy0 UbJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PmGRh9fL3l8MwNtvLtx5InktKZ+MpvpnIzFdS1D0/YU=; b=Vv/dbHvP0c+NIQknaidxSwHl0qtGeg4bEo45a22SfGV+g4i3wkfC7xQgN4BRYvgISi IjSkPKPeBdjrHSVu3ubumipByL5/9CL1poD/F2hEuBo4GX7O8qZllD37ymCcbz3aila0 zqu9fsxlwMKkqDd7eR5PqRkNEN+67H50FffI0eGrXmJyl5tb3ezjnxdIh7KXLPOdjR1M URFkitM383nLPrSbsvK7SCe/YyI3iV4zFT9YCfO+NS8gIYFOqdjFwA260HnvZubPI37e ftXKOnFE0imSI2pDUCdwjHcsS6KAScAxthW0SHHECOq7GFA2TlJ7eKvRkAjOf/xH5eaH 4DvA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E298l76kmVNz7i6JNoeERxdfV8RjT4TOaoWSFuWa+PL4Fc7oyc5 8sH+qWHhKYBZt5NyKTcxOOw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdXVRK/f+dji2I5sDeel4UiKte6vgmfT7q/SscOKvaXbKFYkN1jmkyQy32RnBbWJhfuHnZFOQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:89c5:: with SMTP id c5-v6mr426837ljk.19.1530490630198; Sun, 01 Jul 2018 17:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.239.102] (83-245-232-101-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.232.101]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d23-v6sm34924ljg.17.2018.07.01.17.17.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Jul 2018 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: <776b2a30-071c-bb36-42a4-dee3e6596c79@rogers.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 03:17:08 +0300 Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <776b2a30-071c-bb36-42a4-dee3e6596c79@rogers.com> To: davecb@spamcop.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Subject: Re: [Bloat] building a better toaster X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 00:17:12 -0000 > On 2 Jul, 2018, at 2:34 am, David Collier-Brown = wrote: >=20 > If you put your cost accountants in one silo and your engineers in = another, you get to be an ex-company (;-)) Maybe so, but if you let the former have absolute authority over the = latter, you'll end up with the same shoddy far-eastern-made crap as = everyone else, because buying the standard mass-produced components and = plugging them together is all the budget will allow for. Likewise, if = you let Marketing dictate the schedule, you *will* end up releasing = something unfinished and buggy as hell, because it took 80% of the time = to reach feature-complete and the remaining 20% is distribution = lead-time, not available for debugging or even basic usability testing. The fact that both of the above happen far too often is a source of = intense frustration. The fact that many retailers won't even bother = stocking a higher-quality product that happens to exist is downright = *insulting*. I could give you all sorts of railway analogies to go with this. The = British railway industry alone is a rich vein of examples of abject = stupidity contrasted with brilliance. There is a middle ground. Have cost be one of the factors for the = engineers to optimise for, but don't make it the overriding factor. = Tell them the commercial benefits of shipping in time for the holiday = season, or back-to-school, or whatever - but let *them* decide if it's = worth rushing the product out to meet that schedule. Consequently, = you'll get a better product that might just surprise the market. - Jonathan Morton