From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=apple.com header.i=@apple.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20180706 header.b=SnjM1OGX; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=apple.com policy.dmarc=reject Received: from ma-mx03.apple.com (ma-mx03.apple.com [17.23.4.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 710E4168990E for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2026 02:16:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mr55p01nt-mtap02.apple.com (mr55p01nt-mtap02.ise.apple.com [10.170.185.211]) by st47p01nt-mxp03.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20250821 64bit (built Aug 21 2025)) with ESMTPS id <0TLJ0SSCQA2V2Q10@st47p01nt-mxp03.apple.com> for bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net; Fri, 18 Sep 2026 00:16:10 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1176,Hydra:6.1.134,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-09-17_05,2026-09-16_02,2025-10-01_01 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=cc : content-transfer-encoding : content-type : date : from : in-reply-to : message-id : mime-version : references : subject : to; s=20180706; bh=bjT1scQnm4LUue2h1Cfr9z8cgihDqf/D23wrCACFxhQ=; b=SnjM1OGX3ke/bL2VZyTUcWSBdj34fPtz0wiSMJ8+Yv/+NqDOuEjDlnaBPjM5719VuLDt B5nJpt4zliBRlPoIJOXBLhtCG9yL1xFKRR9OdMFqdwQujqUbDEG/KTFgUYWnyBOGdM0b r4nzMsnlGCHgbJt8nxcZya/NotHfUX/c42YL0UpHGMVuvMlTMcWSVcwB4aU1l5bn37uG /IMolcnXZrRXA9THd7wl9PO3LRvOsao0/C0UAPcIBCVA/Syzt1yYwE2zrXe5lLVFmWGU CwjwV/LGlfFXjfcmiiVYEKl2xdf7kxJRseaD/qcsXX3BPOSrra443IX/MAcnF9fsvgW9 uw== Received: from mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com (mr55p01nt-mmpp04.ise.apple.com [10.170.185.204]) by mr55p01nt-mtap02.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20250821 64bit (built Aug 21 2025)) with ESMTPS id <0TLJ1YK2JA2VM0O0@mr55p01nt-mtap02.apple.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2026 00:16:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com by mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20260513 64bit (built May 13 2026)) id <0TLJ1Q000A13MV00@mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2026 00:16:07 +0000 (GMT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 2d682d06d4452f7f842383a701a46700 X-Va-E-CD: ccd588ac6ef838f52cd34577a02293b6 X-Va-R-CD: 2739caf9a37132f2aa8326dcf93a2acb X-Va-ID: 9b7097b3-f89d-469e-ad21-3cdaa428a797 X-Va-CD: 0 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 2d682d06d4452f7f842383a701a46700 X-V-E-CD: ccd588ac6ef838f52cd34577a02293b6 X-V-R-CD: 2739caf9a37132f2aa8326dcf93a2acb X-V-ID: c5667b49-55ce-43dd-bcc6-5dea16628a57 X-V-CD: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1176,Hydra:6.1.134,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-09-17_05,2026-09-16_02,2025-10-01_01 Received: from smtpclient.apple ([17.192.138.167]) by mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20260513 64bit (built May 13 2026)) with ESMTPSA id <0TLJ1PQ37A2VKH00@mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2026 00:16:07 +0000 (GMT) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81.1.8\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 17:16:07 -0700 Cc: bloat , Frantisek Borsik , "Mohit P. Tahiliani" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <24DF2C83-5FB2-44FB-B69F-6BDA27F0191C@apple.com> To: Neal Cardwell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81.1.8) Message-ID-Hash: 5W3YD3Z6EYQMYCR73GZFMHZ5RLU3ISCI X-Message-ID-Hash: 5W3YD3Z6EYQMYCR73GZFMHZ5RLU3ISCI X-MailFrom: cheshire@apple.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Bloat] Re: The hell has frozen: Latency mentioned at APNIC 62, during a keynote! List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Sep 17, 2026, at 12:56, Neal Cardwell wrote: > Likewise, I would not call latency a "resource". The link is the = resource. Latency is a performance characteristic. Effective management = of the resource (with L4S or other schemes) can yield both low latency = and high throughput. >=20 > Calling latency a "resource" makes it sound like something that can be = built or purchased. One cannot build or purchase low latency. You can = purchase hardware that allows low latency, but you still have to deploy = protocols that know how to use the signals to achieve low latency and = high throughput. Very good point. This is 100% right. A =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D is something that exists in finite = quantity, so you need to decide where to allocate that limited resource. = Almost by definition, I think calling something a =E2=80=9Cresource=E2=80=9D= is synonymous with saying that its allocation is a zero-sum game. Stuart Cheshire